For me, the issue here is that Kiva has exercised very poor judgment. That bothers me far more than the actual cockfighting. Listing this loan opens Kiva up to tremendous risk for bad publicity, and has a high potential for alienating some of their lenders. Indeed, one lender stated yesterday that they would be removing their funds and taking their charity elsewhere. Will that lender be replaced by someone who is excited that Kiva lists loans for cockfighting?
By comparison, there is very low risk for bad publicity or alienating lenders by establishing a policy that disallows loans that are used to raise animals for fighting. Such a policy could be established without moral or cultural judgment, and I think if it had been done in the first place most people would have said "Makes sense."
You don't have to be a champion against animal cruelty to make decisions that are smart for your own company, and that recognize how the public might perceive such a decision. Rather than take a reasonably pragmatic approach, Kiva has decided to stand on principle, a principle in this case which just doesn't make good sense or hold up to scrutiny. The justification for listing this loan is not wanting to impose cultural imperialism. Kiva hasn't avoiding doing so, they've just imposed it on their lenders, rather than their borrowers.
Hear, hear! I couldn't agree more, mungo.
I have heard/read from at least five or six lenders, among them some with larger portfolios, that they consider leaving Kiva altogether, and I can only imagine the impact on the donations Kiva receives, invites, Gift Certificates etc. - I know I won't as happily recommend looking at Kiva to friends as long as they are supporting such businesses, and think I am not alone in that. It is IMHO a seriously bad and ill-advised business decision apart from all ethical issues.
Kiva or some staff members might feel it would be perceived as "defeat" should they back down and change their guidelines, now, and take that as a reason to continue standing on principle - it wouldn't IMHO, just as a sign that they are listening to their lenders' widespread (though not universal) concerns and such as smart business judgment.
I understand there is a slippery slope in play here, I really do.
I don't - thanks for giving me that cue to address a point I wanted to address anyway.
Apart from all logical fallacities of "slippery slope"-arguments in general (see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope), it's IMHO plainly wrong to talk of a "slippery slope" when we are talking about consecutive decisions to be made by one entity (Kiva). The decision not to post bloodsports loans is in no way whatsoever predetermining any future decision on loans regarding lifestock loan or loans to butchers, furriers, poultry businesses, ... Kiva can draw the line basically wherever they want and choose to inside the frame of legality (and can change it, again, no problems) - but will have to live with (a) this decision and (b) its consequences.
As Gerard wrote in an earlier post here, Kiva makes a decision based on what they "feel comfortable with" to have on their website. I still am rather dumbstruck by what they (as an organisation) are obviously feeling comfortable with, and hope that we are able to make them reassess their concept of "comfort" - but I don't see any slippery slope in this.
But given the risks on either side (listing the loan / not listing the loan) I think that the judgment in this case was very poor. And it's almost insulting to respond to concerns about the loan by essentially saying we're not being sensitive to other cultures.
I agree. I still don't really see the cultural imperialism, either - but even if there were any, I'd have to say "fine! let's be imperialistic, then - anytime". There are certain values (not necessarily "Western" or "Northern", not necessarily connected to "prosperity") that I am willing to argue and stand up for, and even if it becomes a little bit missionary, maybe. Having respect for life and integrity (of human being as well as of other creatures) is right at the top of these - and this entails not harming anyone or any animal for so-called "entertainment". If it's bullfighting in Spain, cockfighting in Peru or the Philippines or (illegal) dogfighting in the USA doesn't matter - neither does (for me) if it's rooted in local culture or not.
Sure, discussing morals is always difficult, but the argument of "cultural imperialism" or just "local culture" is an all-too-easy way out of this debate about universal values - I once have been accused of little else than cultural imperialism when discussing the death penalty with a law professor from NYC. And sure - many people will find things I believe or do morally objectionable but I am prepared to discuss these with them, maybe reconsider them, and most of all I don't expect these people to support me in them. Same goes for "our society" here in Germany or (for most of you) in the US or in one of many other lender countries - sure, we all aren't (nearly) flawless and we should change certain things, too, but this is no reason not to oppose e.g. bloodsports wherever we find them.
The most depressing thing is, I came into this forum 5 days ago, excited about Kiva and with grandiose plans for some amazing fundraising activities. Today, if someone asked me about Kiva, I would have to say "Well, I used to be really excited about them, until..." I suppose now I will have to find something else to be excited about.
Maybe give it a little more time before looking elsewhere (I know I will) - Kiva isn't perfect yet (far from it), but it's still a great idea with some very committed people backing it, following an important mission. I (think I) know how you are feeling, though.
Kiva, if I'm hard on you, it's because I love you and want you to live up to your potential. You're not doing that right now. You've taken away funding to a large number of borrowers, for the sake of one or two. That's is the net result of people who refuse to lend because you insist on listing these loans. That position is doing more harm than good, to everyone.
Hear hear!
Thanks for your post, mungo, and best wishes,
Wolfgang.
