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Author Topic: Greening the Microcredit World  (Read 11100 times)
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Tatiana
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« Reply To This #40 on: January 13, 2009, 05:54:29 AM »

I think what is critically important is making sure every human on this planet can feed their families and educate their children.  When those needs are met, then, and only then, can we expect them to even care about being 'green'.  I think if my children were starving, the environment would be pretty far down on my list of priorities.

I very much agree with you Jan, and at the same time I don't.

As long as only 15 % of the world population (United States and Europe) are using 50% of the oil, gas etc. While Africa is using only 3%, it us us who should clean up our own act before we point a finger at the development countries.

It is very unfair to say you can't do what we do, because the earth can't handle that. But than again, the earth probably wouldn't be able to handle all global citizens consuming the way we do.

We in Europe cut down most of our forests. But for our climate it is critical the the west part of the Amazon isn't cut (If the West part of the Amazon gets reduced to much, it is very likely that the whole Amazon forest will get too dry, and turn into a desert. The airflow to Europe will be less humid, therefore colder, and our climate here will get colder.

We have only one earth, and everything is interconnected.  It is very complicated, I certainly don't have the answer to what is fair and right.

But in my opinion it is equally important to make sure that all global citizens can be fed, educated and have access to healthcare, but at the same time do that in a way that makes sure that the next generations also keep having these options.

So I do agree with you Jan that greening Kiva might not be critically important but at the same time thinking about sustainable development might be more important than it ever was.

A torn up Tatiana (Who just started studying environmental science at the Open University)
« Last Edit: January 13, 2009, 05:58:22 AM by Tatiana » Logged
Tatiana
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« Reply To This #41 on: January 13, 2009, 06:10:07 AM »

I know the whole enivironment issue is much more than energy use alone. But here is a picture that show both gross domestic product and energy use:

Energy consumption versus GDP





 2004
Author: Frank van Mierlo



« Last Edit: January 13, 2009, 06:36:24 AM by Tatiana » Logged
RichardF
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« Reply To This #42 on: January 13, 2009, 06:38:34 AM »

Something all of us here can do is find our own Happy Planet Index, then decide how we feel and what we want to do about it.  Smiley

"The Happy Planet Index (HPI) is an innovative new measure that shows the ecological efficiency with which human well-being is delivered.

"It is the first ever index to combine environmental impact with human well-being to measure the environmental efficiency with which country by country, people live long and happy lives.

"By addressing the relative success or failure of countries in supporting good lives for their citizens, whilst respecting the environmental resource limits upon which our lives depend, the HPI has much to teach us. Analysing its results could help us to move towards a world where we can all live good lives without costing the earth."
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quizzoid
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« Reply To This #43 on: January 13, 2009, 07:56:49 AM »

I'd rather see support for projects like this:

http://www.blueenergygroup.org/index.php

Low-cost green energy for countries like Nicaragua.  Not only is it green energy, but it's healthier for people to do their nighttime activity by electric light versus candlelight.
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waywardcats
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« Reply To This #44 on: January 13, 2009, 03:03:10 PM »


We have only one earth, and everything is interconnected.  It is very complicated, I certainly don't have the answer to what is fair and right.

But in my opinion it is equally important to make sure that all global citizens can be fed, educated and have access to healthcare, but at the same time do that in a way that makes sure that the next generations also keep having these options.

So I do agree with you Jan that greening Kiva might not be critically important but at the same time thinking about sustainable development might be more important than it ever was.

A torn up Tatiana (Who just started studying environmental science at the Open University)

Tatiana,

I think you are on the right track here (sorry Jan).  There is a lot of research now showing that the environmental impacts of climate change affect individuals in poorer countries more than it affects countries with the infrastructure to better handle catastrophes.  For example in 2007 a UN-sponsored meeting concluded:

Quote
This year, floods in China have forced nearly 800,000 people from their homes, caused almost $400 million worth of damage and affected over 300,000 hectares of crops. Meanwhile in Bangladesh, more than 3,000 people were killed and millions were left homeless when Cyclone Sidr struck on 15 November (2007).

“In view of the growing populations in Asia and the need for secure access to food for these populations, indoor and urban agriculture is also receiving special attention to make most efficient use of space using controlled environments,” said WMO (the World Meteorological Organization) Secretary-General Michel Jarraud.

Participants conferred on issues critical to promoting sustainable agriculture in the region, including drought response, impacts of climate change, water resources, pest and diseases.

WMO recommends countries invest more in urban and indoor agriculture that can assist greatly in providing food for the hundreds of millions of people living in Asian cities whose populations are surging.

The agency also measures providing seasonal prediction and early warning systems are crucial, as well as monitoring systems for regional droughts to guide farmers' decisions on when, where and what crop is best to grow. Forecasts can also help in better managing the spread of pests and diseases.
UN-backed meeting on climate change's impact on agriculture wraps up

Consider also that many of the poorest of the poor, for example in Cameroon where they raise much of their own food, and drink water from wells or rivers.  Sustainable practices are of immediate concern. If your upriver neighbor begins dumping more waste into your water supply it can affect your health and well being quite dramatically.

Consider also this Kiva Fellow's blog from Sierra Speaking about Poverty and what effects the flood had on Doña Reina Marina Fernandez. 

Quote
She lives in a tiny isolated village. To get there I rode on the back of a motocycle for over two hours of dirt road. We stopped twice to push it through rivers and sludge. We arrive to find the majority of her property totally destroyed by the recent flooding that has decimated the southern region of Honduras. The flooding has changed the shape of her land and her oven is about to fall off a cliff. She is trying to figure out how to move it since she makes her business baking bread and other sweets.

For several months this year, the flooding isolated this town. Most of the crops of every person, including Doña Reina, were destroyed and there is little to eat. They take the bus in now to Danli to buy basic goods, and try to sell them in an economy, that for all appearances, is hardly functioning.

They live in garbage. As we drive up, dirty children come to greet us. Big, haunting stares. As we talk I find it hard to focus for the sheer quantity of flies in their open homes.

Dona has many things on her mind right now, but if you asked her about environmental issues that affect her, I think that you would find that she is interested in creating sustainable ways for her children to grow food for themselves and to sell.

Just musing here, but I think that we all need to be concerned about the environment.  It is not local, and here in California where I have  clean water, a sanitation system and a warm place to get out of the weather it might be easy to forget about someone like Dona whose life is greatly affected by a flood.  Was the flood caused by deforestation in her area?  I don't know.  But Dona probably didn't cut down those trees or buy products made from their wood, likely they were sold in a more developed place (like the US).  Or maybe it was just climate change causing more and heavier rains?  Whatever the case, she is living with the consequences.

-Kerry-

Other interesting resources: Developing Countries Lack Means To Acquire More Efficient Technologies  and Poverty and the Environment
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"Our daughters can contribute just as much to society as our sons, and our common prosperity will be advanced by allowing all humanity - men and women - to reach their full potential. I do not believe that women must make the same choices as men in order to be equal, and I respect those women who choose to live their lives in traditional roles. But it should be their choice. That is why the United States will partner with any Muslim-majority country to support expanded literacy for girls, and to help young women pursue employment through micro-financing that helps people live their dreams." - President Barack Obama, June 4, 2009
Jan & John
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« Reply To This #45 on: January 13, 2009, 10:20:47 PM »

Kerry, I am in agreement with all you have said...

I just find sometimes the discussion is all in black and white, when there is really so much grey...

If a woman can only feed her children by selling charcoal for cooking with...
then that's what I will lend her money for.
I will not tell her that she cannot have a loan because her business is bad for the earth.
I will not tell her that she cannot have a loan because inhaling charcoal is bad for her health.
Perhaps once those children are fed and educated, then they will look around for better ways to cook.
Will we make them go hungry because we have convinced Kiva to stop lending to them?

We can join groups and educate ourselves...
about how to help fund those wonderful projects to provide a better way of life with alternate energy. 
We can go into this lady's village and 'green it up' for her...
however that is not going to happen today...
and that's when her children need to be fed.

What we can do is choose loans based on our ideas of what looks 'green'.
Other people will loan for other reasons.
What I will not do is put the ownership of the problem on the shoulders Kiva.
I just don't want Kiva to have to add another department to their overworked staff to make sure each loan is 'acceptable' in some earth-friendly fashion...

jan Smiley
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"The place God calls you to is the place where your deepest gladness and the world's deepest hunger meet" - Fredrick Buechner (in Wishful Thinking).
"Every child should be well born, well fed, well taught, well housed and well treated."
Maude Riley, Alberta Council on Child and Family Welfare 1923
"Each of us feels that we are just a drop in the ocean, but the ocean would be less without that missing drop." --Mother Teresa

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waywardcats
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« Reply To This #46 on: January 14, 2009, 12:16:19 AM »

Kerry, I am in agreement with all you have said...

I just find sometimes the discussion is all in black and white, when there is really so much grey...

What we can do is choose loans based on our ideas of what looks 'green'.
Other people will loan for other reasons.
What I will not do is put the ownership of the problem on the shoulders Kiva.
I just don't want Kiva to have to add another department to their overworked staff to make sure each loan is 'acceptable' in some earth-friendly fashion...

jan Smiley

Jan,

I agree completely.   Handshake

I choose loans for many reasons myself, and the loans I do not choose I can not join secure in the knowledge that there are others who will help those borrowers.

I am not sure that Melanie was trying to advocate that Kiva offer only environmentally friendly loans or that people choose only those loans that are environmentally friendly, just that we look out for those that are.  I certainly agree that Kiva has a lot more to deal with than screening loans for environmental effects. 

Friends? 

-Kerry-
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"Our daughters can contribute just as much to society as our sons, and our common prosperity will be advanced by allowing all humanity - men and women - to reach their full potential. I do not believe that women must make the same choices as men in order to be equal, and I respect those women who choose to live their lives in traditional roles. But it should be their choice. That is why the United States will partner with any Muslim-majority country to support expanded literacy for girls, and to help young women pursue employment through micro-financing that helps people live their dreams." - President Barack Obama, June 4, 2009
cpbailey
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« Reply To This #47 on: January 14, 2009, 01:57:00 AM »

I think there are two levels of environment going on.  The micro-level is individual--each person or family making the best decision for self given the circumstances.  In this, Jan is correct; with limited education or finances, a family will struggle with the day to day and may not worry about the environment.  On a societal level or macro-level, there are government decisions which impact how green a region is.  In China, the government's choices on river management for electrical usage or water reserves means that it impacts flooding potential.  A government's ability to offer alternatives to clearcutting can make it so an individual living in the rainforest can feed her family without cutting down the trees or jungle.  Education about crops or eco-tourism can make people treasure the rainforests they live in while providing meaning ecological jobs.  Even education and availability (at affordable prices) of birth control becomes a green choice.

Individuals can't do it all, and governments need the support of the people.

Here is a tragic situation in Africa.  Here lack of regulations meant that people did something, unknowingly harmful, to scratch out a living.  In an hour a woman could make as much doing environmentally harmful work.  She would have to work all day selling vegetables.  Not knowing it is harmful, she made a rational decision.  http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5ghduY_CiKJZyEPlMpLocPlJLBpGAD95FS2IG0

Leaving the environment which has been harmed is difficult as their roots and homes remain in the toxic town.  If the government really wanted people to leave, it could pay them to rebuild elsewhere.  In a poor country, there may not be funds to do so.

Colette



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quizzoid
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« Reply To This #48 on: January 14, 2009, 08:02:37 AM »

On the issue of ethanol, I would encourage anyone interested in this debate to read the following article from Wired magazine:

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/14.10/ethanol.html

This article is from October, 2006, so it's a little dated.  But it's still a good article.

While the ethanol debate is quite complex, I am hopeful that corn-based ethanol will be a temporary technology/supply until we have a large supply of cellulosic ethanol, at which point we could stop using corn as a feedstock.  In addition to the switchgrass previously mentioned in this thread, there are several other interesting feedstock possibilities that could be much better than corn:  sweet sorghum, and so-called "energy cane."

On the issue of food prices, most of the articles do not bother to mention the large DROP in costs that has occurred since July of 2007.  In 2007, corn prices reached between $7 and $8 per bushel.  This morning, corn is selling for about $3.66 per bushel.  So it is debatable how much of the spike in corn prices was caused by ethanol demand versus other factors like commodity speculation, weather/drought, and harvest/supply.
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RichardF
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« Reply To This #49 on: January 14, 2009, 11:09:49 AM »



Matt's musings reassure me I really don't have to worry much about Kiva telling people what they should and shouldn't do; unless of course, I try to post a picture of my pet hamster making a loan through her online broker.



Fluffy is always up to something!

Anyway, supporting "green" loans, not supporting "ungreen" loans and discussing our views on the matter here have just as much impact on the Kiva marketplace as every other type of lending strategy - no bottom line impact whatsoever.  Every loan gets funded.  If/When loans don't get funded, it certainly won't be because of any environmental issues.

That said, the truth of the matter is

Supporting green lifestyles and economies helps everyone.  Helping the environment and helping our brothers and sisters out of poverty are not mutually exclusive enterprises.  Real world examples already are out there to show us how these shared missions can be acomplished.

Quote
GreenMicrofinance Center (GMfC) is a non-profit organization.  Our mission is to address climate change and environmental justice by providing education and sharing knowledge on 'microfinance and climate change' and 'clean energy for the poor'. 

Objective
GreenMicrofinance (GMf), a pioneer in merging the environmental and microfinance sectors, has been working since 2002 to bring clean, affordable, renewable, locally-generated energy to the two billion at the bottom of the pyramid.  While the developing world's adverse impact on global warming is miniscule, the effects of climate change -- such as flooding, droughts, and desertification - have devastating impacts on this population, the world’s most vulnerable. GMf‘s objective is to provide educational, technical, and financial services to assist the global poor's transition to a sustainable, affordable, and healthy energy future.

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