Kiva Contract

[Guest]

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[AccountAbility]

We arrived back from our internet-free vacation and logged in to Kiva.org and found to my surprise that I could only get to our portfolio if we agreed to the new Terms of Use.  They were lengthy and very different than before. 

I read through them quickly but didn't really have much time to digest them.  But the site wouldn't let me in unless I agreed with them.  I found that quite offensive. 

If Kiva thinks that they can change their terms without notice, then why force me to accept them now?  I haven't had any time to see if they are different than when this thread was started by Richard.   

They definitely still have many typos in them. 

Dan

[Natasha]

You are right Dan, you can't access your portfolio without "agreeing" to the terms and conditions


Another change to the website... "In need" has been changed to "Fundraising"... you say potato, I say potatoe (isn't that how the song goes?)...

[Soriak]

and Kiva (a) expressly disclaims any responsibility to screen any Borrower or any Field Partner, and (b) shall have no liability whatsoever and you shall hold Kiva harmless from, any and all liabilities with respect to, or resulting from such screenings.

I understand the b, but does a reflect a change in policy? I was under the impression that MFIs were screened before they were accepted into the program. A result of that screening being their "stars" - ie their risk.

The one thing I hate about American contracts is that you never know if something is disclaimed under the cover-our-ass principle, or if something actually isn't done at all. Same goes for verifying the accuracy of the information about MFIs. I'd imagine it's common sense for Kiva to look into it and surely this is what they practice - yet the agreement specifically says that they're not doing so:

Kiva cannot and does not verify the accuracy of information from Field Partners, other Users or Borrowers.

While it's common to waive the right to a trial by jury in the US these days and Kiva is more friendly by permitting a mutually selected judge (read your other agreements some time, more and more include that the company gets to pick the arbiter and those arbiters almost always rule in favor of the company) - but why on earth would this be included?

All such proceedings shall be closed to the public and confidential and all records relating thereto shall be permanently sealed.

Also:

Kiva may also terminate your participation in the Program and status as a User at any time and for any reason, effective upon transmission of notice to you at the email address you provide to Kiva. If your participation in the Program is terminated by Kiva, you agree not to use the Website any further.

Without regulating how the loaned-out money will be refunded? I don't think so.


I've never seen such a hostile contract for participating in a non-profit effort and I'd suggest they go over this again. For the moment, I'll have to survive without access to my portfolio - what a shame. (I'm sure the last part was part of the early agreement as well, but as people loan more and more money this issue is going to become more important.)

[Kay]

While it's common to waive the right to a trial by jury in the US these days and Kiva is more friendly by permitting a mutually selected judge (read your other agreements some time, more and more include that the company gets to pick the arbiter and those arbiters almost always rule in favor of the company) - but why on earth would this be included?

All such proceedings shall be closed to the public and confidential and all records relating thereto shall be permanently sealed.

So that those proceedings cannot be used as precedent, I believe.

[Claus-Peter]

I am able to understand, that Kiva is insisting on the acceptance of the new terms before I am going on to lend to new businesses.

It is very hard to understand, that I cannot go to my existing portfolio of loans, which was build up under other common agreements.

In case I would have difficulties with the new conditions, they for sure have to allow me to withdraw my money if it is repaid on an old loan. But I can onlly withdraw my money with access to the portfolio. From my point of view Kiva has to reconsider this kind of behaviour.


Claus-Peter

[Henry]

UNPROFESSIONAL

In presenting it to your supporters, and the way it reads.

I think it shows the immaturity of the people running KIVA personally.  Sorry - just my opinion.

would an email giving a reason/benefit have been a hard thing to send out prior to "YOUR LOCKED OUT"? 

[rusty2]

I just made a loan under the new terms of use. Now that I have begun reading through them (I know I should have read them first, but...) I am a little pissed off. 

I too have noticed a number of typo's.  Did Kiva hire a first year law student to write up these terms??  I worked as a paralegal for a number of years and never produced a legal document (particularly one this relatively short!) with so many mistakes.

Until I am able to fully analyze the new terms of use, with the assistance of an attorney friend or two, I will make no further loans. 

When I joined Kiva a month ago, I couldn't contain my excitement.  I'm beginning to wonder if I jumped the gun!?!

And yes, Henry, I agree....UNPROFESSIONAL!

[Dottie b]

So should we NOT agree to the terms?

Agree to the terms in order to get our money back but not lend any new money?

Agree to the terms and continue as usual?

All write to contactus to complain?


Dottie B

[Natasha]

I think that this is new too (located under the loans)...

© 2005-2008 Kiva. All rights reserved. Kiva is a U.S. 501(c)3 non-profit organization.

Lending to the working poor through Kiva involves risk of principal loss.
Kiva does not guarantee repayment nor do we offer a financial return on your loan.

No surprises there!

[AccountAbility]

So should we NOT agree to the terms?

Agree to the terms in order to get our money back but not lend any new money?

Agree to the terms and continue as usual?

All write to contactus to complain?


Dottie B

Dottie - I'm not sure what is best to do.  I do still believe in Kiva and its leaders and staff and feel that eventually this will get worked out to an acceptable conclusion.  But by locking us out Kiva is forcing the question now.

I think this is a public relations disaster for Kiva with existing lenders who even glance through the Terms.  What a shame.  Because as I said when this first came up, this isn't a bad first draft.

Dan