Kiva Looking into Group Lending Functionality

[Guest]

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[Agent001]

Hi crew,

Kiva is working on building certain functionality in for groups, companies, etc to more effectively link their communal fundraising efforts, for teachers to more effectively use this as a tool, groups to share control over accounts and possible dual level access passwords (one for lending, one for passwords/withdrawals etc).

We've been in discussion with them as these are features our group desperately needs to continue managing our growing fund. If anyone ELSE is working with groups and thinks these may be useful, please get in touch as Kiva is actively seeking to see how needed this functionality is!

Cheers,

Shawn Smith
www.agentsofchange.ca

[Henry]

I'm with you on this, I'm pushing for two different reasons.  KSC, and another project of mine.

Here was my KIVA response when asked for a multi level access account.... I'm sure you've seen similar!
(sadly, i think she thought I was a newbie to KIVA, and answered as such.  I let it ride, at the moment for me it's not an urgent issue, I do look forward to the day, we can have an account with different level passwords)

Actually forget the passwords, I'd be happy with an account set up as non-withdrawable without written permission from the account owner.  This should be something that could be done right away. 

Dear Henry,

Thank you very much for your interest in Kiva.org!

Many groups lend together through Kiva.org. However, we are still
working on a formal group feature for the website -- so at this point,
it is not possible for us to collect and aggregate payments for one
account. However, you can designate one individual to be your group's
account administrator who manages the payment process and receives all
email updates from Kiva.org. It is up to you how you want to pool
your money together, but please note that in an effort to keep our
operational expenses low, we only accepts checks for amounts
over $1000.

Once you have set up the account, you can share the URL for your
lender page with your group members. This lender page will display the loans in your group's portfolio, and it will also display what amount of
money has been repaid by each business. And remember, from your lender page, your members will be able to click on the name of a business and view the business' profile page where all journal entries are posted.

You can make the URL for your lender page reflect the name of your group by entering the name of your group in the first name and last name boxes that appear during the setup process. You also have the
opportunity to create a lender name that reflects the spirit of your
group when you create your account.

[Agent001]

Hi Henry,

Glad to hear from you! We have spoken quite closely with Kiva for some time, visiting more than once. I'd love to get a collective push going to make this functionality a reality, as our situation will become fairly unmanageable in short order.

The dual level password is huge for us...we will be administering up to $100,000 in Kiva loans as early as this summer and growing quickly...and the whole point is that the youth raising it get to control it...which is tough when anyone with the password can withdraw the funds. An account thats non-withdrawable without written permission would be amazing, basically, as a first step.

The problem at Kiva, I'm assuming, is that as as soon as they set an account up as non-withdrawable it automatically triggers a different legal distinction in the org - it becomes THEIR money legally, hence the ability to issue tax receipts for it. The functionality hasn't been seperated from the legality, but seems a simple enough step from a distance.

Kiva is officially moving forward with an aggregate lending feature, so affiliated people with individual accounts can recognize their collective input. A good step, but not really helpful for our situation.

What's your other project if you don't mind my asking?

My direct contact at Kiva for this project is Roma Jhaveri, her email follows the usual Kiva.org first name pattern. She's quite receptive to getting input around building this in a meaningful way and has asked me to forward people to discuss with her.

We all know Kiva does a LOT with relatively minimal resources, but I really think this is an important one for them and definitely is for us.

Shawn

[cpbailey]

Shawn,

I think there are a number of groups that might use the functionality if it were available.  Kiva Shopping group might benefit, for example.  I would think school groups would have an issue with allow students to have access to the account and not have accountability, so having the current system could PREVENT some organizations from being able to participate.  (Schools and other organizations want clear responsibility and money trails)

Colette

[Agent001]

That's essentially our problem. We can't let ANYONE into the system to manage the account without supervision...and there are well over 100 young people directly involved in supporting/fundraising/cycling to mexico as the case may be.

I know, our fault for counting on a functionality that isn't there...but we're looking for solutions, haha 

[AccountAbility]

Shawn , On another thread here someplace (can't find it right now) I thought you said that non-withdrawable accounts were already available.  You just need to write to Kiva to set it up that way.  I was very interested in that, since there are all sorts of situations that need that sort of thing.  Parents and Grandparents setting up "children" accounts and funding them is another arena that would benefit.

So long as there was a provision that left the right of someone on the lender side to withdraw Kiva credits, I cannot see why this would lead to turning control over to Kiva.  It still is lender monies--just a more formal procedure and identification to withdraw.  This is not that different from business bank accounts with predetermined authorized persons.  If that can be automated with multi-level logins, then so much the better.

Dan

[Agent001]

Shawn , On another thread here someplace (can't find it right now) I thought you said that non-withdrawable accounts were already available.  You just need to write to Kiva to set it up that way.  I was very interested in that, since there are all sorts of situations that need that sort of thing.  Parents and Grandparents setting up "children" accounts and funding them is another arena that would benefit.

So long as there was a provision that left the right of someone on the lender side to withdraw Kiva credits, I cannot see why this would lead to turning control over to Kiva.  It still is lender monies--just a more formal procedure and identification to withdraw.  This is not that different from business bank accounts with predetermined authorized persons.  If that can be automated with multi-level logins, then so much the better.

Dan

Hi Dan,

It is entirely possible to set up non-withdrawable accounts, but they are permanently non-withdrawable. In Kiva's books, it becomes their money, though you retain control over lending (but not withdrawal) decisions. As a Canadian charity, we can't even legally do this, as without the right to withdraw in any way its simply a donation to Kiva (cross-border).

Something similar to a business bank account with pre-determined authorized persons, or multi-level logins in an ideal world, is exactly what we're hoping for but currently this is not possible. Its either wide-open to withdrawal with the single password and no further controls, or locked permanently in Kiva, and legally classified as a donation and not a loan.

Glad to hear a few people thinking about this one!

Shawn

[AccountAbility]

Thanks for the clarification.  I too think this is an important enhancement that Kiva should work on.  It might require a more sophisticated login system, but opens the door to many possibilities where there needs to be a secondary login with less privileges.

Dan

[roma]

Hi folks,

Thanks for your feedback on this -- agreed that it would be an important and valuable piece of functionality to add.

As an initial step, we're thinking that it might make sense to provide a simple way for individual lenders to band themselves together under a particular group affiliation. For example, there could be a KivaFriends group, which everyone on this forum could join while still maintaining their own accounts. This way, you get the fun of working together as a team to alleviate poverty but can continue with your individual impact -- if you choose to join the group.

The question I have is whether anonymous lenders -- people who choose to be displayed as Anonymous -- would be interested in joining one of these groups? So far, from the people we've surveyed, the answer has been no. Any anonymous lenders here with input?

Thanks again for all your help.

[Henry]

Hey Roma, glad to see your working on this. 

I can only speak for the KSC needs, this direction your headed WILL NOT help us.  And, I don't see much benefit in the direction your headed.  I'm not even sure where this idea came about from any of the suggestions given.

of course, i can sometimes be narrowminded!  LOL   

[RichardF]

I agree with Henry (on the first part, not on, "i can sometimes be narrowminded!").    What you're suggesting doesn't seems to add any lending functionality to what's already available.

As far as creating a "group" of individual lenders goes, that seems fine for the purpose of social networking.  For example, the Kiva page at Change.org allows for folks to show their support by joining and posting various types of comments and resources.  I'm sure many schools, churches and other groups would find something like this valuable.

If you all do choose to go down the social networking road, I hope you also would implement a set of "friends" functionalities, e.g., adding friends and sending messages - public & private.

[Agent001]

I have to agree with the two previous comments - I do understand this is a much simpler engineering fix for Kiva at the moment than actually creating the multi-level passwords etc required - the value would be in loosely affiliated groups being able to automatically show their collective impact. I don't see it as zero value, just not a particularly useful solution for those in this forum. Again, much simpler for kiva to implement too...

BIGGEST concern remains the ability to "lock" accounts without making them non-withdrawable...a second hardcore password in the case people wish to withdraw funds, or written permission to Kiva. This would be on an exception basis, as its not a LOT of accounts that would need it at all, but those that do represent a lot of money.

As mentioned, a secondary log-in is an evolution I expect Kiva will be happy to have once they take the leap...

Thanks for posting Roma!!

Shawn

[roma]

Thanks for the reply, guys -- I appreciate it. And I want to reiterate that I hear your problem and believe it's an important one.

I do want to be clear that I don't think the fix we're looking at precludes doing the multi-level password fix. That's something that could be built on top of this feature if we make sure to build it thoughtfully, or it's something we could address through an entirely different solution. It's not really an either-or in my mind.

Just as some background, this has come up as a fix to the more basic problem of being able to lend and create impact as a group, which is something our customer service folks hear a great deal about. It's also an attempt to create more viral awareness around Kiva since we need to start recruiting more lenders to the site. Richard, you mention "social networking." We don't want to create a social network for a social network's sake; there are sites out there that already do this much better than we ever will be able to or care to. Rather, we want to build a community/site for people who care about alleviating poverty (KivaFriends is in many ways the cornerstone of this community). Having more viral and community-motivating features is one way to do this.

That's kind of a ramble, but I just wanted to provide you all with some insight into what's going on inside our minds

Thanks for the input

[Agent001]

Thanks Roma...I actually think you guys are pretty fantastic at trying to balance everyone's needs, within an org that is growing almost exponentially. Just can't know what our needs are if we don't tell you (over and over?).

Its a security concern too - I know the goal isn't to have a lot of money sitting in the account but significant amounts can accumulate and its just frighteningly easy to imagine the ability to scoop a password and transfer it out. Even an ability to LOCK what paypal account it can be moved to...

[Diane R]

The social networking functionality that I would see as more useful on the Kiva.org site would be the ability to indicate if I was open to contact from other lenders, and the ability to contact others directly through the site.  I don't see any need for the ability to form ad-hoc lending groups through the Kiva.org site, and would suggest that there are more urgent technical fixes and improvements that might make better use of the programming muscle.

Just my $0.02. 

--Diane.

[RichardF]

Richard, you mention "social networking." We don't want to create a social network for a social network's sake; there are sites out there that already do this much better than we ever will be able to or care to. Rather, we want to build a community/site for people who care about alleviating poverty (KivaFriends is in many ways the cornerstone of this community). Having more viral and community-motivating features is one way to do this.

Hi Roma, I'm glad to see, "We don't want to create a social network for a social network's sake."  I never recommended anything like that.  Change.org wasn't created for that purpose, neither were schools or churches.

Let's say folks who are interested in topics like those listed at the Kivapedia - Education Connections page formed an "Education Network" group with the ability to interact with "friends" lending through Kiva.  A weakness of the Kiva site as I see it now is the inability to contact other lenders we might see have common interests, such as education.  Sending a message to offer collaborations certainly has great potential to leverage the Kiva platform toward the aim of alleviating global poverty.  Having a group page becomes its own advertisement for more members to join.  I hope Kiva finds a way to directly support such collaborations on it's web site.

[AccountAbility]

I do want to be clear that I don't think the fix we're looking at precludes doing the multi-level password fix. That's something that could be built on top of this feature if we make sure to build it thoughtfully, or it's something we could address through an entirely different solution. It's not really an either-or in my mind.

Thanks for the input

Thanks for joining this thread and entering the dialogue.  I personally see the two issues as completely different.  While we have never heard of this other issue being brought up or discussed here, the multiple logins has been requested here from a number of fronts.  In addition to Shawn's needs for groups such as Agents for Change, there are benefactor accounts such a parents and grandparents who want to keep connected to "beneficiary" accounts, desiring to control withdrawals but wanting the "beneficiary" to be able to freely access the account and re-loan credits in a closed system.  This similar type of usage has been asked for with some regularity here.

My personal opinion about the other project you are working on is that lenders would need to have a choice to opt in, because many would not want it, even those who have not signed up as "anonymous".  Just look at the flack that arose over showing a lender's invitees without permission.

Dan