Non-Attachment, Selfless Service and Kiva Lending

[Guest]

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[Sherri]

Thank you Tatiana, that's a very wise perspective. Made me think!

My spiritual teacher always said when it came to our humanitarian efforts that we should not feel we are doing the people we help a great favour, because that will make you only feel superior. Instead we should be grateful for the person that he offers us a chance to serve the Supreme (or God, Jesus, inner Buddha, whatever you prefer...) in him. And grateful for the opportunity to be His instrument.

[Karuna]

Thanks for your welcoming, Tatiana, dear friend. 



rusty2, non-duality indeed is a difficult concept. My English is
in fact not good enough to give good explanations so that
misunderstandings can be completely avoided. Buddhist
concepts are easily misinterpreted, especially when they are
translated. Non-attachement is often confused for indifference.

Sherri, I agree with you that it's not about suppresing emotions.

[KivanSteven]

I havent practiced it but according to my studies, which of course can undergo a great deal of misinterpretation by cultural differences and personal perspectives influenced most certainly by previous religious affiliations and upbringings, Buddhism doesnt have limitations, much like most religions, yet in Buddhism it is a real practice or tenant of faith.  Think of a Christian or Muslim trying to have a continually closer relationship with God throughout their life...much in the same way a Buddhist attempts to have a closer, more understanding, more controlled, more equalizing relationship with and understanding of themselves. 

Just my opinion, but I wasn't saying or implying that they practice the suppression of emotion but rather the control of and dominance over it whereby it no longer needs to be suppressed--suppression signifying a real control over the person even as the person feels they possess the control by the mere ability of suppression.  A Buddhist, in my mind, seeks to overcome this very human inhibitor.  I also think the relationship that a true practicer of Buddhism has with him/herself and their relationship with the world as a whole need to be differentiated because how they interact with each can at times be very different, one often blurring or distorting the definition of the other in the eyes of anyone outside of that individual...an individual who alone can determine their personal meaning, role and purpose in the world.  I don't believe that personal separation from the earthly world necessarily entails or is in conflict with selfless service in that same world....I like this discussion though...is that Buddhist like?  Very thought provoking Richard.

[RichardF]

Hi All!  Great discussions, as usual. 

I practice an American version of Surat Shabda Yoga.  Many of the principles are very similar to those in other traditions, although they might not necessarily be applied in the same ways.

One of my favorite sayings is, “Soul lives by giving.”  That’s a pretty good way to suggest I agree that non-attachment has virtually nothing in common with indifference.

More times than not, a good story can convey a principle far better than any labels ever will.  This topic seems to call for some stories like the one about the Buddhist monks and the lady.

Two monks were walking down the road (stop me if you’ve heard this one).  Before you knew it, they came across a pretty lady in a fancy dress pondering how to negotiate a mud puddle.  Without hesitation, the older monk picked up the lady, walked across the mud puddle, set her down without a speck of mud on her, and went on his way.

After a few miles, the younger monk couldn’t take it any longer and said, “We’re monks!  How could you hold that lady in your arms and associate with her that way?!”

The older monk replied, “I let go of the lady when I set her back down on the road.  You’re carrying her with you even now.”

Guess which monk has a better understanding of the meaning of non-attachment and selfless service. 

[rusty2]

....I like this discussion though...is that Buddhist like?  Very thought provoking Richard.

Steve, I think that this type of discussion is just what the Buddha would like.  He said, in effect, do not believe what I say, discover the truth for yourself. Through this discussion I think that we are each discovering some truth and understanding for ourselves.

I digress and retract my previous statement saying that "when there is no more attachment, desire, aversion, then there is, I think, no more suffering." As Sherri has stated, "that once all attachment, desire, ill-will etc are let go, there is still the natural suffering of simply being human - illness, aging, death, etc. But because there is no clinging, we won't end up making those natural sufferings into more than they really are."  Her words are more in line with the teachings that I have been given.

I too agree with Sherri that it is not about suppressing emotions. I do have personal stories where my Buddhist faith has helped me through adversity and family tragedies but these deal with accepting impermanence and suffering rather than suppressing emotions.

A wonderful story Richard!!!  I am a fairly new Vajrayana practitioner of the Shangpa and Karma Kagyu traditions in Tibetan Buddhism.

[cpbailey]

Perhaps emotions in this perspective are like water on a duck's back; the water just rolls off without any effort at all.

Colette

[KivanSteven]

I think thats right on Rusty and Colette, their is no denying the physical pain but it is the magnitude or lack thereof of one's spiritual consciousness that determines whether it infiltrates and influences the true core of a person's being, the being within the body so to speak, or whether it rolls off the duck's back like Colette so eloquently pointed out. 

It's also important to realize that if we get specific enough there is a single religion for each and every person and people are free to ascertain the true meaning of what Buddhism and any other religion implies to them without the need for being seen as more right or more wrong based on the perceptions of others.  Im just putting that out there because my belief is solely my belief just as "yours" is solely yours and as is often the case with religious talk, I dont want to step on anyone's toes...im just as well wrong as I am right...arent we all?  People are just always in the business of comparing one belief to another, and its almost human nature that when you have two that there is no equal, only a superior and an inferior, and dont we as people always seem so intent to seek that out, even unconsciously?  It's as if its an inherited human flaw that we believe there is no more than a single right and no less than a million wrongs when it comes to just about anything.  I think its incredible when someone can stand for the beliefs of another simply because those are the beliefs of another.

Rusty if you'd ever like to share some thoughts or ideas on Buddhism feel free to make mention to me.  I cant profess to be Buddhist in the traditional sense since I tend to incorporate a variety of ideas and philosophies from a myriad of religions into my single system of thinking and being, but I could probably stand to learn a good bit from you.

That was the exact story my professor shared with us Richard, thanks for refreshing my memory.

[Karuna]

Steve, you already suggested a difference between pain and suffering from pain (dukkha in Pali). That goes for mental as for physical pain.
But I would even go further than that. The realised liberation of the eightfold path is no less than overcoming birth and death. In nibanna, there is no coming and no going, no birth and no death. We're talking about the ultimate reality here. Still we seem to have to deal with conventional reality too, where things are related and transient.

[Henry]

I'm attached - I'm going to miss this guy!  What a smile!
well done! Carlos! 
http://www.kiva.org/app.php?page=businesses&action=about&id=15730

[Sherri]

Thank you Richard for the parable. I always liked that one!

Colette, your analogy to the duck is a good one. The duck still enjoys the water, but when it climbs out of the pond the water rolls off.

I used to look so forward to Christmas with my family, that when it arrived, a small part of my mind would be a little sad that it would soon be over. So my enjoyment of Christmas was tainted by my wish that it wouldn't end. Once I started practicing non-attachment, I could enjoy the holiday without the sadness of it's inevitable ending.

Here's another story I really like:

A man is wounded by an arrow. He falls to the ground and his comrades rush to help him. One friend reaches to pull the arrow out. But the wounded man stops him asking what kind of arrow is it? Who shot it? What kind of feathers are on it? How long? How deep? What direction was it shot from? Etc etc. Before the man can get answers to all his questions, he dies. If he had just let the arrow be removed immediately, he would have lived.

How many of us let opportunities, experiences, and life pass us by because we are to busy stressing, worrying, desiring and basically just letting our minds run in circles? Or, how many of us have thoughts like "If only I had a better job/higher salary/a house/children/spouse/better looks/weight loss/etc/etc then my life would be how I want it. Or my life would finally begin."  I know I used to think like that a lot. It's so easy to compare yourself with others.

To me, the goal of studying impermanence and non-attachment is that it peels away the layers of our chattering, worrying, stressed out, greedy mind and we can live life in a completely free, open and engaged way. It's kind of like those Claritin commercials where the layer is peeled back and suddenly the colours are even more vivid, where you didn't even notice the colours were muted in the first place. When this happens, compassion is as natural as breathing, because you see clearly the suffering of others around you.

I love this discussion. Nice to share our views in this way. And to combine two big forces in my life! Kiva & the Dharma!