Round 2 - Groups – vote for your favourite for the 2009 calendar

[Guest]

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[Christopher]

Welcome to the second round of voting for the 2009 Kiva Calendar.  There are 3 concurrent polls (Female individuals, Male individuals and Groups) – remember to vote in each one.

You have up to 3 votes in this poll. (Results will be available after the poll has ended).

Below are links to each  entrepreneurs' profile and a thumbnail (which in turn is linked to the full-sized image – be warned some are a couple of MB or more)

The entries from the second round of polls will go through to make a heirachical shortlist* (that ensures a balance of countries, genders, groups and businesses) and be passed to Fiona@Kiva to get the permissions required over photo use.

Kiva profile: Trabajando Unidos Group	Kiva profile: Twiga Group	Kiva profile: Abeli's Juhudi Group
Kiva profile: Untouchables (INTOCABLES) Group	Kiva profile: Ismanie Etienne's Group	Kiva profile: Martin Trust Group
Kiva profile: Estrellas del Cielo Group	Kiva profile: Unity and Strength Group	Kiva profile: San Cayetano Group
Kiva profile: Jamonoy tey de Kacoumpa Group	Kiva profile: Subgroup G of Salasala

*I am currently reserving the right that if there is a tie I will have the casting vote (I will not have voted in the poll, however tempting it might be).

Where possible the casting vote will be used to ensure:
- a balance of male and female entrepreneurs (as to the Kiva ratio)
- a balance of businesses (farming, shops, repairs, food, markets etc).

[KivanSteven]

Keep in mind that the write ups for the entrepreneurs will be a bit more difficult in the limited write up space for months represented by a group.  We couldnt do what we complain so much about the MFIs doing, which is focusing on a single person in the picture--I think the reaction to that would be a bit like ours in relation to those MFI's--asking, "what about the rest of them?"

Im not saying its impossible to place a group picture in the calendar, but there will just be a need to be a bit more creative and concise in the way the write up is handled.  I think the space we had last year for the write ups was somewhere around 65 words at most, and I can only speak for myself again, but the write ups were fairly easy because a lot could be said for one person--with a group it might prove a challenge.

A brief and incomplete example of a sentence in a group loan write up might read something along these lines:

"Bill, Joe, and Tom are spirited young men with a real passion for improving their standard of living, in spite of the obstacles they continually face.  Working in the service industry as a mechanic, furniture maker, and motorcycle taxi, these three men are dedicated to making their community a better place and finding a more accessible path to success and stability."

[KivanSteven]

Addition:  Are there plans to definitely include group loans in the calendar:  based on the even higher standard calendar quality, (not picture quality), I think these mostly sub-par pictures (with the exception of maybe 1 or 2). could knock out some incredible single entrepreneur favorites.  Last year we pretty much got all the best pics in the calendar that we could--maybe groups shouldnt be mandated, if they are, because most of these are really lacking...(Steve, who wants a group loan or two to make it through, but worried what makes it in from this selection--vote carefully).

...if group pics are not being mandated then disregard the mandated concern...

[cpbailey]

I didn't care for the inclusion of group photos, so I am protesting by not voting for any.  There are many single borrower pictures that I prefer.  This is a calendar which is used to promote Kiva to family and friends, and the pictures need to move people. 

Colette

[KivanSteven]

I somewhat agree Colette--not that it matters to you at all, lol.  Im not opposed to a group photo if its exceptional, but I am highly against making one or two mandatory--whose to say we dont get lucky and a sub-par group photo makes it through...are we to accept that at the price of an enormously better pic losing out? 

Its all objective, yes, and the beauty of these are in the eye of the beholder, but a calendar is half visual, and because of that needs to be as visually appealing as possible.  Honestly, much of what goes into a calendar pic needs to be absent of the whole "beauty in the eye of the beholder" thing because this is going out to the public and deserves to be top notch.  What I mean is if you see a pic you shouldnt have to find reasons to support placing it in the calendar based on its appearance--instead the picture should just tell you immediately one way or the other...there were plenty that caught my eye immediately so measuring the quality of pictures that way is an option to use personally.  What Kiva pics do for us they need to be able to do for the calendar users as well...the group pics dont do much of that for me.

Last year we made adjustments even after voting completed...maybe we can do that again if necessary this year...although last year was more a problem of diversity of gender/location/job type as opposed to sub-par pics.  The voting was much more difficult last year as well--there were far more 5 star pics, but I think, I hope still enough 5 stars this year to fill the calendar...I think we can make it happen--we have to.  Lets see what happens Colette and if something doesnt look right, we KF can pick it out like a sore thumb.

[Diane R]

I want to see on the calendar, and will vote for, photos that show the borrower in some context of their loan use.  I do not vote for nice photos of people who aren't shown in some way associated with their participation in Kiva.  For that reason, I will also not be voting for any group photos, and would encourage us not to force ourselves to include one or more in the final calendar.  (The exception might be Trabajando Unidos Group, but there are plenty of better single-borrower photos in small shops which would be more effective and striking, I think.)

--Diane.

[KivanSteven]

Hehe, geesh Diane, I didnt even like that one...you probably wouldnt like my favorite of the bunch then, if you can call it that...the last one...but I agree with your assessments as well.

I guess the only reason Im not fully opposed to a group loan making it into the calendar is because it conveys another aspect of Kiva and lending, which is group loans.  Is that message worth a less than striking picture?  Who knows.

[wthepoo]

Well, I'm torn, somewhat...

First of all, I agree that we should not feel forced to include a group photo just because it is a group photo - just the same as I don't think we should feel forced about including only one photo per country, a certain relation of male or female photos, only a certain number of farmers, bakers or whatever. IMHO we should "just" try to put together the best possible calendar representing Kiva in the most appealing way. This will take 13 or 14 particularly good photo-story-combinations, and it should - if possible - reflect the variety of borrowers and projects funded via Kiva.

Having said this, I feel that in terms of this variety it would be nice (IMHO, not more, not less) to include at least one farmer, one grocer, one borrower producing something (tailor, baker, ...), at least one female and one male borrower, at least one Asian, one American, one African and one European borrower, and so on - and, yes, at least one group. So if I had to decide - which luckily enough I will not -, a (just) slightly less appealing group photo would win over the umptieth individual farmer - because groups belong to Kiva, probably more than ever.

And whereas I agree, Diane, that I also prefer photos that relate to the loan use, it's not a condicio sine qua non for me. Some of the group photos I have seen (not necessarily these here - but some of them also fare quite well) I find particularly appealing for the expression on their faces and for the apparent interaction and friendship and bond between the group members. Here, I have found three group photos that I would not mind or better I would appreciate having in the calendar on my wall... I quite hope that at least one of them will make it (and yes, Trabajando Unidos is one of them).

About the write-up/accompanying text - I agree, Steve, that this could get difficult and that we should not focus on one borrower. But if we include (just) one group we could remain rather vague in the description of that particular group (focusing on location, number of members, possibly their relationship [members of a village bank, etc.]) and use the remaining space to highlight why group loans are such an important method in micro-finance and how they work (joint-liability).

Just my 2 cents,
take care,
Wolfgang.

[Alphecca]

I didn't care for the inclusion of group photos, so I am protesting by not voting for any.  There are many single borrower pictures that I prefer.  This is a calendar which is used to promote Kiva to family and friends, and the pictures need to move people. 

Colette

I agree with the sentiments in this thread, expressed by Colette et. al., but did exercise my right to vote in the group section.
Although in principle, I really like the community spirit / solidarity in group loans, the group pictures are not so compelling as the individuals in their work environments.  Also, it is difficult to "explain" a group loan in the limited space available on the calendar.

These pictures were all so good; the only way I was able to come up with a final selection, is to make sure I didn't vote for the same country twice.... so I did have a few regrets because of some really hard choices.
If I had liberty with the 3 group votes, I probably would have put them on the individuals that I regretted.

I'd also like to see, maybe on the back of the calendar, that each loan is featured on a web page, and how to find them.
Then someone who has a calendar and curiosity can pull up a particular web page and see these real people, their details and their lenders.

Alph

[KivanSteven]

Thats a great idea Wolfgang--a great post, but pariticularly the part about explaining a group loan and giving the whole concept an introduction, because truth of the matter is that a non Kiva member would probably be at least a little confused by a group picture.  Im not sure it can be done in 65 words, but if so then Im all for that should a group loan make it through--the positive is that its another side of Kiva that is getting out to the public.

As far as gender and countries though, since microfinance and Kiva are so female orientated, I think the gender mix needs to be an honest representation of just who is most often the primary beneficiary of a microfinanced loan.  

Last year it was 10 female and 3 males I believe, but I believe in the world overall, females are at least a 5 to 1 majority over males...so we are already slightly skewing the gender reality of microfinance.  Kiva's own gender gap, which is currently around 78% female, or in other terms just above a 3 to 1 margin, was very well matched in last years calendar.

To have half male and half female or an even more inaccurate depiction, more males than females, would skew part of the true meaning and purpose of microfinance which is empowerment of women, a greater responsibility with loans by women, and a greater benefit for the overall family when a woman is the recipient of the loan.

The only reason I am for one photo per country if possible is because once again it expands upon the message of Kiva to others.  We have almost nowhere to write anything on the calendar, (but for a small section on the back as of the most recent calendar), nowhere to verbally share the details of Kiva,  one detail of which is how many countries Kiva works in.  The more countries we can include in the calendar, the more we can say and are saying about the number of countries Kiva is working in.

[KivanSteven]

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I'd also like to see, maybe on the back of the calendar, that each loan is featured on a web page, and how to find them.
Then someone who has a calendar and curiosity can pull up a particular web page and see these real people, their details and their lenders.

Alph

Great idea Alph (I dont know you all that well so hope its not an oddball thing that Im referring to you by that name if its reserved for better known acquaintances and friends)...we did that last year and Im sure we will continue that trend.  I think it was Christopher that set up a page on KF that was provided on the calendar for finding further information about the entrepreneurs...I think its imperative that this be included, otherwise no one using the calendar could dive deeper into the lives and experiences of these entrepreneurs without a great deal of difficulty.  If they cant do that then whats the point?

[AccountAbility]

I have similar feelings about group loans as many have already expressed. It makes it virtually impossible to show the entrepreneurs connected to their activities.  And the pictures are not particularly striking.

However, group loans are now a huge piece of Kiva lending so I figure we might as well find the best way to deal with them.  After reading the story of Trabajando Unidos Group I concluded that this was the best story to introduce group loans to the uninitiated. 
1) Each borrower gets a voice to say what they are doing and what they will use the loan proceeds for.
2) They explain their connection to each other.
3) The photo itself is colorful and attractive even from a distance (say across the room)

Dan

[KivanSteven]

Yeah its not so bad as I first thought...I usually am not too fond of the behind the counter pics, but Im more accepting of it now because of the good points made about it.

[Christopher]

At the moment Kiva 'All Kiva Partners' reports 77.26% Loans to Women Entrepreneurs.  I don't know the proportion that are groups and how this affects the figure just quoted.  All I can say is that group loans are a significant proportion of the loans - at the moment with 660 loans fundraising right now 204 include the word group in their title (http://pipes.yahoo.com/pipes/pipe.run?_id=Vhz1kzqC3BGAFF0zYEsBXw&descriptionsearch=Group).

I think it would be remiss of us not to include a group loan or two where possible, as it would give a false impression of Kiva - something we diligently tried to avoid last year in ensuring the broadest range of countries (ie no duplicates), genders, business types.  We did have to squeeze in some male entrepreneurs last year - if it had been a straight up vote (from memory) none of them would have made it.  Though the calendar was still very well received and all of the pictures held their own.

Many of the points made about group loans this year, were made about male entrepreneurs last year.  I think we have more groups in this year than we had male entrepreneurs last year.

Including a group loan or two also provides us with an opportunity (as Wolfgang put so well) and that was in the back of my mind (but not in so many words) when I compiled this poll:

[snip] we could remain rather vague in the description of that particular group (focusing on location, number of members, possibly their relationship [members of a village bank, etc.]) and use the remaining space to highlight why group loans are such an important method in micro-finance and how they work (joint-liability).

Like others I too prefer pictures that show the entrepreneur in their work environment, so group loans are always low down on my list.  I prefer the work situation as that is the important aspect, thinking about it a little more in light of Wolfgang's wise words the important thing about groups is joint-liability so a good group picture with happy smiles and a sense of unity etc has just gone up in my estimation.  I doubt that more than 2 (or perhaps 3) of these loans will make it into the final calendar.

If I were voting I would sigh at the poor quality of the all male group (nil points), and hope that one or both of the mixed groups get a good number of votes, there are several all female groups that I think would be popular choices.  For balance I don't think we can just have all female groups representing the groups in the final calendar, and I am keeping my fingers crossed that the voting allows a mixed group in.

I think it was Christopher that set up a page on KF that was provided on the calendar for finding further information about the entrepreneurs...

It was Joe that set up a page as a jumping off point to the highlighted entrepreneurs: http://calendar.kivafriends.org/
Not sure how much traffic it got, but we posted the URL on the back of the calendar - an this year's draft has it as well.

[KivanSteven]

Im all for a group loan or two--Im still torn as to whether a less than mediocre picture is worth highlighting a fairly new aspect of Kiva.  Someone who wants the group loan pics in the calendar can try to convince me--Im on the fence.

When the voting was for three group loans, I was worried that 3 group loans were being mandated for the calendar....then when I saw the group loan pics I became really worried due to their quality...hence the reason I made the posts about being uncertain of the group idea.  The calendar can absorb one average photo, but beyond that, especially anything more than 2, I think the quality of the overall calendar begins to suffer the effects.

Wolfgang did share a bit of wisdom with us involving his idea of explaining the group loan concept in a write up.  Since I highly doubt it can be done in the alotted space, we might need 2 or 3 group loans each offering explanation of a small aspect of a group loan, in order to fully convey the group loan concept to potential Kiva members.  If that is the case then i would have to express my disapproval of using the calendar to inform others about group loans.  But if its going to happen or has to happen then lets make the most of it...

...we all so far seem to think the group loan pics are not so good to put it nicely--there has to be some better group loan pics out there.  Since we all dislike the current ones, it might be easy for us to agree to find some better group loan photo or photos even after voting has completed.  I didnt participate much in finding calendar photos but does anyone who was really in to that think there are some great group photos hiding somewhere?

[Christopher]

I did spend quite some time looking for more group loan photos, and came up empty - probably due to the prejudices I listed earlier.  I fear we are out of time to go on the hunt again and then rerun this poll - though I am not sure it is necessary, some of them got good numbers of votes, and better than the men last year.  I know there are concerns and even boycotts, but having a sneak peek people are still happy to be voting in this poll.

I tried to set the number of votes to relate to the number of photos in each poll, and the spread of genders across all the polls - I also capped the number to 14.  Ideally the numbers worked better with allowing more votes, but I though it would be odd having 15 or 16 votes.

[KivanSteven]

Ok Christopher, thanks for the info...I was about to go photo searching myself--guess we have to work with what we have since they wont get any better.

[mejane]

Of the group pictures I ruled out these 3:
Abeli's Juhudi Group
Untouchables (INTOCABLES) Group
Estrellas del Cielo Group
only because the pictures are so very dark (not good lighting).  There is nothing wrong with the groups themselves.

My favorite is: Twiga Group......because of the good lighting in the picture (sun is out), the vibrant colors of the clothing, and the fact that so many of them are laughing.  They seem to be sharing a joke or some happy event.  I smile because they smile.

Since picking out pictures is one of my favorite things here, I will try to be on the hunt for good group loan pictures for the next calendar. 
Jane

[KivanSteven]

Great Jane--we're learning what we need to do next time--as Kiva changes Im sure we will have some unprepared for surprises next year as well...but until then, Ill be on the lookout over the months for group photos as well.

Since it seems we will be using at least one of these--I want to take a second to lobby for the last pic of the bunch, Subgroup G.  The photo is bright and clear--no bland colored face of a building in the background.  There are some nice smiles and some stoic stares...great clothing, culture showing through, young and old--only no males.  At least 7 KF were in on this loan.

[AccountAbility]

One of the problems I have with group loans for the calendar has to do strictly with the picture composition.  Many faces in a group just blur into the background as you move away from the picture. 

My calendar is on the wall of our office (the one I am looking at right now) and most of the viewers will be 6-8 feet away to start.  To me the picture needs to be clear and compelling enough for a closer look.  That is one important reason why I chose Trabajando Unidos Group.  I blew the picture up and it works well for my typical viewer.

Dan