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Author Topic: Republicans, Democrats, & Independents -- Are you ready to rumble????  (Read 50872 times)
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Jill
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« Reply To This #10 on: September 08, 2008, 04:51:31 PM »

If you’re not too crazy about Obama or Chris Matthews, you may want to skip listening to this….   

It was the first three minutes of the following that especially  touched and resonated in me and maybe that also just today resulted in Matthews and his very much more rabid-dog partner losing their positions as MSNBC’s “main men” for the rest of this election season’s live prime-time political commentary.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/26448270#26448270


No question but that Matthews, here, got some of that hope and that he just couldn’t keep it to himself any longer.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2008, 01:59:54 PM by Jill » Logged
KivanSteven
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« Reply To This #11 on: September 08, 2008, 05:48:54 PM »

Sorry Geoff--most KF almost never site the source of the quote, but Peter had it right--the opening quote wasnt much that was controversial or opinionated anyways and instead based on basic observations that carried little room for movement one way or the other in perception of it--it wasnt controversial, it only stated what was going on at the moment.

And to Susan--yours and other comments from non-Americans are fully encouraged.  I think Americans are often curious and keen on hearing what the world thinks of us and how we appear on the outside anyways.  Many may say they dont care what the world thinks of us, but they remain curious nonetheless (often that sentiment is a response to the negative feedback we always seem to get even when we do things right).

As someone who was initially going to vote for Clinton had she won the nomination, I thought that when it came to electability, Obama's best bet was her for VP by a long shot...assuming he wins the election, that choice might have proved to be less than wise for various reasons--but had he chosen her as I would have urged if I had my say, the slight but growing fallout for the Obama side that continues because of McCain's VP pick would be largely avoided.  This election is an emotional one, one that is largely based on progressiveness and who can demonstrate the largest commitment toward change and social equalities/opportunities.  McCain may be receiving more credit for his role in choosing a woman as a VP than Obama is now receiving for possibly being the first African-American president because Obama didnt make the choice to be the first black president, while McCain actually made a choice of bringing a woman onto the ticket--that supercedes the fact that Obama becoming president would be seen as more progressive by the public than Palin becoming VP--so McCain really is reaping the credit for his choice, while Obama may have over-estimated his ability to carry the progressive voters based on his race when he chose the "ordinary" Joe Biden to fill the experience gap--what I am saying is a woman with experience would have guaranteed the focus on Obama's campaign, insured enough of the women vote, continued and furthered the progressive and social appeal of Obama when it comes to race and gender, and cancelled out the effects of McCain's choice.  They simply did not anticipate this coming from any angle, and that is their first major screw up.

McCains VP pick was directed at two groups--the hard core conservative vote he already had and now solidified and energized, and needless to say, women.  So far there has been a 20% point swing for white women from Obama to McCain, according to NBC news, and that is in a single week.  I would venture to say that this transformation would have been almost completely avoided with Clinton as VP, and McCains pick would have taken on a whole different perception from the public--perhaps seen as merely a copycat choice to Obama.  But as of now, Palin has incredible and increasing appeal to white women, the religious right, the conservative base, feminists, veterans because of her son heading to Iraq which almost never happens for a political figure since they exempt or have their children exempted from heading to war, disabled and special needs people of all kinds which account for a large segment of the population, and of course indirectly, some independents, who are taking a new and refreshing look at McCain, especially after his speech at the convention and for the foreseeable future as the talk is going to be even more focused on his party as opposed to Obama's.  Obama was the talk for close to a year and the media especially is looking for a new story, and some new excitement.  I dont see Republican focus by the media and the general public dying down anytime soon.  His choice of someone inexperienced was brilliant, love her or hate her, because it forces everyone to get to know her and what she is all about.  For that reason she had basically as much television draw across America in her speech as Obama did.

Scott Im an independent like yourself and for many of the same reasons that you site.  I never thought I would vote Republican and never have as of yet because I typically do not agree with most of the reasonings behind their ideas, and definitely never considered voting for McCain since I was no big fan, but I must admit that his choice of Palin immediately resonated with me, a lifelong Independent who has always voted Democrat.  Strange things happening--kind of like the Obama movement one year ago.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2008, 06:32:15 PM by KivanSteven » Logged

I find not direction in the readings of those with whom my eccentricities are similar, but rather validation.

My only solace is that I find a peaceful place where I might be resigned to my depriving loneliness.
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« Reply To This #12 on: September 08, 2008, 06:55:13 PM »

what I am saying is a woman with experience would have guaranteed the focus on Obama's campaign, insured enough of the women vote, continued and furthered the progressive and social appeal of Obama when it comes to race and gender, and cancelled out the effects of McCain's choice.  They simply did not anticipate this coming from any angle, and that is their first major screw up..

Steve,

I agree with this assessment. I feel that Republicans have a strong ability to rally around their candidate no matter their foibles, yet us more liberal voters have issues with our principles (what a problem to have) that cause fractures in our ranks in terms of voting. Obama/Clinton would have sewn that problem up quite neatly, but instead we have Clinton supporters who are extremely bitter and while they may not vote for McCain, they are considering and re-evaluating their other liberal voting choices. If we can't put Obama in office, I don't feel like we can put anyone in office.

-Scott
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« Reply To This #13 on: September 08, 2008, 07:15:00 PM »

As someone who has been following the election closely (though from the outside), I think Americans have the choice between two fundamentally different views of politics.

In Obama, you have the intellectually curious genius. (I think it's fair to call him that: B.A. in international relations from Columbia, Magna Cum Laude Juris Doctor from Harvard, professor of constitutional law at Chicago) He has been emphasizing policy and ran an almost exclusively positive campaign until recently.

On the other hand you have McCain. Academic underachiever (894th out of a class of 899), troublemaker, known as a hothead. He has played an emotional campaign based around his time as a prisoner of war. His ads have largely been negative. I think his campaign manager outlined their strategy best:

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/thefix/2008/09/mccain_manager_this_election_i.html
Quote
Rick Davis, campaign manager for John McCain's presidential bid, insisted that the presidential race will be decided more over personalities than issues during an interview with Post editors this morning.

"This election is not about issues," said Davis. "This election is about a composite view of what people take away from these candidates."

They bet everything on this, because policy wise they fail flat out.

Consider the comparison of the tax proposals:



(The original data comes from the washington post)
So when McCain says "Obama wants to raise your taxes" - it's technically true, assuming you earn over $600,000. (he never says Obama raises taxes on everyone) They're good at the semantics game. Governor Palin is using the line about ebaying the jet in her stump speeches. McCain used it as well and said "she sold the jet on ebay = and made a profit." Some research shows that she did put up the jet for auction, but it never sold on ebay. They hired an outside company to sell it later and they sold it below the purchasing price. Still, it's a profit compared to having the jet grounded. I don't think this is a fair way to campaign - it's clearly not what voters imagine when they hear the line.

McCain's health care proposal is quite bizarre. First of all, employer provided benefits would become fully taxable. There is no tax credit. If the employer stops offering you a health insurance plan and you buy it yourself, then you get a deduction. ($2,500 for an individual, $5,000 for a family) The problem is that employers contribute far more than that to health insurance. Either way, it is going to be a tax increase. (see graphic attached at the end)

I think the social issues can't really be debated as they're usually based on faith/belief and not rational arguments. However, I do find it concerning that Gov Palin attempted to fire a librarian for refusing to ban certain books. During her time as a mayor of a town of 6,000 people, she also managed to get $20m in earmarks from Washington and go from no debt to $27m debt during her term. To me, it's painfully obvious that she was picked to pander to the socially conservatives, not the fiscally conservatives. (I actually share many views with the latter.)


Polls right now have to be taken with a HUGE grain of salt. They usually poll likely voters, which means those who have voted in the past. The Obama campaign has spent a lot of money on registering new voters, who aren't included in the polls. It's also likely that african-american turnout will be higher than in the past, which isn't reflected in representative polls. (they take turnout from previous elections) There's also the issue that younger voters rely primarily on cell phones and many no longer have a landline. Polls are conducted over landlines, so they're also not included. In favor of McCain is that many Republicans may not respond to polls as they aren't excited or possibly even hesitant to identify themselves as Bush supporters. This may be gone now with Palin's nomination, which would explain why McCain's numbers are jumping. (only in some polls though, others have them where they were before the conventions) We also have to consider the so-called Bradley Effect. That is people may not want to appear racist and thus tell pollsters they will vote for the black candidate. In the privacy of the voting booth, they'd still cast their vote for the other candidate. Nobody knows if this still holds true today, or on a national level.


edit: Oh, I forgot to add this: McCain also claimed that Obama raising the capital gains tax would affect everyone in their retirement savings. This is flat out wrong, as 401(k)s are exempt from capital gains taxes. The same applies to traditional IRAs as well as Roth IRAs. This is where most Americans have all their retirement savings. (exactly because of the tax breaks...)


* kff.jpeg (73.39 KB, 652x490 - viewed 84 times.)
« Last Edit: September 08, 2008, 07:23:56 PM by Soriak » Logged

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Jan & John
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« Reply To This #14 on: September 08, 2008, 07:36:00 PM »

our news tonight is saying - we will have a low key campaign - they are expecting a Tory sweep in Alberta (they took all the seats in 2006) - Calgarians are not enthusiastic about another election and feel our tax payer dollars are being wasted - why go vote when 'everyone' knows who will win - sigh - apathy reigns...

... and on October 14th in Canada - I am absolutely positive that many Canadian voters will be surprised when they look at the ballot and find no place to put an X next to the name Obama.  The US election is so much in our news.

pray for us.
jan
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« Reply To This #15 on: September 08, 2008, 09:09:35 PM »

Will do, Jan, if you do the same for us! Cool
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Wood Fairy Glenda
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« Reply To This #16 on: September 08, 2008, 09:14:26 PM »

Great information Soriak--you sure you dont have a little Yankee in you?  I wish our own voters had a better handle on the issues as you seem to.  These days we base our votes on such trivial matters, on media consumption, on our ability to be so easily swayed by a candidates political manipulation--when it comes down to it, many Americans do very little thinking and contemplating when it comes to their vote.

Not to pick on any specific group but take the African American vote for example where it is most evident this time around--over 90% were for Hilary before Obama entered the election scene and it didnt take long before a good 90% and sometimes more were for Obama--merely due to the racial factor--I thought we might be somewhat beyond voting for "our own" but the truth is we vote for who we relate to and who we identify with--which is understandable, but it often has nothing to do at all with the issues at hand.  Most wouldnt know how McCain or Obama's intended policies might affect them, yet they stand behind a candidate as if they have a hard factual reason for placing complete confidence in that person.

I dont mind the negativity because I dont perceive it as outright "negative".  I think a successful candidate needs to inform the voters not only what they are voting for and why, but what they will be voting against and why, and surely each candidate will manipulate the facts and reality of the other's policies to fit ever so neatly into the argument for conjuring up personal support, yet pointing out another candidates potential or even imagined inferiorities is another way of saying you are not that which you are criticizing.  Personal attacks I cant stand for because it tends to imply you dont have enough confidence in your own arguments to win election if one must resort to smear tactics, but policy, performance, experience, public service record--thats all fair game in my court if its conveyed in an honest and straightforward manner.

For example, I read last week a Democrat claiming McCain is against equal pay for women because he voted against it.  I knew this could not be true and if it were I would never consider voting for someone with such a backwards thinking and outrightly unfair policy.  I did some quick research and discovered that in fact he does stand for complete equal pay for women, obviously, but simply does not want the federal government to legislate on the issue and step in by mandating a new policy for every business and employee in America--he felt it would create a mess of confusion and lawsuits galore.  After I gathered all the facts I could, that Democrat came out looking like a fool for trying to make McCain look bad in such a childish and distorted way that was so easily realized.  Attacks of these kind I feel only harm the party and/or candidate that makes them.  It wasn't Obama and I could never conceive of him even making such a pointless comment.  

It is ashame how Obama was entirely positive with his campaign until recently and all he ever received for it was questions about whether he was weak or could take a punch, or whether he was timid of controversy, when all we ever do in America is whine and complain about how negative and disgusting politics is.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2008, 09:17:01 PM by KivanSteven » Logged

I find not direction in the readings of those with whom my eccentricities are similar, but rather validation.

My only solace is that I find a peaceful place where I might be resigned to my depriving loneliness.
s_shewan
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« Reply To This #17 on: September 08, 2008, 09:18:05 PM »



... and on October 14th in Canada - I am absolutely positive that many Canadian voters will be surprised when they look at the ballot and find no place to put an X next to the name Obama.  The US election is so much in our news.

pray for us.
jan
Maybe we should write him in. Grin
 I wonder what would happen if the majority of Canadians did that? Laugh


Susan
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KivanSteven
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« Reply To This #18 on: September 09, 2008, 06:59:04 AM »

Obama supporters may want to put a little extra into the plate:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26615658

"After months of record-breaking fund-raising, a new sense of urgency in Senator Barack Obama’s fund-raising team is palpable as the full weight of the campaign’s decision to bypass public financing for the general election is suddenly upon it..."
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I find not direction in the readings of those with whom my eccentricities are similar, but rather validation.

My only solace is that I find a peaceful place where I might be resigned to my depriving loneliness.
jkwest
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« Reply To This #19 on: September 09, 2008, 10:29:37 AM »

hm....which way to vote....

I think if we(meaning all of us) keep political conversations in this thread, nothing will go wrong...I just don't believe it belongs in other threads...

no harm intended, bikeme, truly....
 Drinks
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Life is too short to make just one decision
Love is too big for just one nation
God is too big for just one religion
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