Questions About the Kiva Website, Itself. Can You Tell Me What's Up With This?

[Guest]

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[Jill]

The same goes for this thread as I said on the other one I just started, the one called More News About Kiva.   If there’s already a kind of catch-all thread, here, that gives people a place to ask specific questions about something they’ve (newly) noticed when visiting Kiva.org but don’t understand, then,  as I said in that earlier thread, you moderator people have my consent, in advance, to move this post wherever that thread might be.

If there isn’t already a thread, then maybe we can use this thread as a place to ask questions and get answers about issues raised when we’re over at Kiva.org and see something that has us perplexed,  or just wondering….


Here’s my question of the day.
Why do you think it is that now, almost every time you see a loan posted, that on the main page shows that it’s only something near 60-75% filled, that it’s almost a sure bet, anymore, that when you try to go to the individual Entrepreneur’s page in the hope of chipping in your twenty-five or whatever, many many more times than not, now, you’re going to find that on that page, it will show that the Loan Request and the Raised So Far amounts are the same, so that you’re essentially closed out of the loan for some undefinable period of time?   And this happens, almost constantly, now,  even though you know from returning to the main page to look at the loan or from clicking on one of that Entrepreneur’s already existing Lenders and checking on that loan on that Lender’s page, that there may be as much as 30-40% of the loan that still remains to be raised.


I understood it, and wasn’t crazy about the phenomenon even then, when there was a particularly noteworthy loan and some Kiva Friend or another would hoard a significant percentage of that loan (instead of just one or two places in it), trying to reserve it for anyone at the Forum who wanted in on it.     But now, it seems like it happens on almost every loan that comes up, and I’ve been wondering how come.   


For people new to the website, it has to be just one more frustration added to the frustration generated by the dearth of loans at the website and the inability to spend either their new gift certificate or just the heart and money they'd intended to contribute, having just heard about this wonderful place we know as Kiva.   They see, on the main page, one second, what looks like it will be a still open loan with lots and lots of room that they can (finally) participate in, and then, the next second, when they actually go to the individual Entrepreneur’s page, somehow, mysteriously, that thirty or forty percent has vaporized, and it appears that the loan has already been filled.   Does anyone know what’s going on with this and have a suggestion about trying to remedy it –  especially for the New Kids On the Block?     


I'll post this and then will try to come back with an EDIT after I find a specific example of what I'm talking about, in case I didn't say it clearly enough for it to make sense to some of you.           

EDIT:  At 12:40 p.m. U.S. Pacific Daylight Time
http://www.kiva.org/app.php?page=businesses&action=about&id=64822&_tpos=2&_tpg=1
Main page shows 75% of loan raised. (Changed to 83% before I could copy and paste this -- but it still may give you the idea)
Individual Entrepreneur’s page shows Loan Request: $600
                                                       Raised So Far: $600

I'd timed out, so had to log in all over again.  My guess is that now the loan has already been actually truly raised, but I'm hoping the example works for illustrative purposes, even so.           

[saabnet]

that there may be as much as 30-40% of the loan that still remains to be raised.

It's because folks have 'claimed' their portion of the loan, but have not yet checked out and paid for it. Once everyone has checked out and paid, the loan will read RAISED instead of RAISED SO FAR.

-Scott

[Sengbe Pieh]

I understand exactly what you are saying Jill and have experienced the same thing.

There already exists a way to remedy this; it was one Kiva used last Fall when there was a large amount of new lenders to the site due to the "Oprah" effect.

Kiva limited the amount one could contribute to an individual loan to $25.00.

Why Kiva hasn't instituted this practice again is a mystery to me.

It would make it easier for more people who wanted to contribute to a loan to be able to do so and allow/encourage more participation.

           

Geoff

[Sengbe Pieh]

It's because folks have 'claimed' their portion of the loan, but have not yet checked out and paid for it. Once everyone has checked out and paid, the loan will read RAISED instead of RAISED SO FAR.

-Scott

Scott,

This may very well be true on some/most loans but I have witnessed loans recently where the requested amount is $600 to a $1000 and only one, two or three people are eventually listed as lenders.

This severely restricts the opportunity for others to participate.

                                                                                                                                           

Geoff

[waywardcats]

 

EDIT:  At 12:40 p.m. U.S. Pacific Daylight Time
http://www.kiva.org/app.php?page=businesses&action=about&id=64822&_tpos=2&_tpg=1
Main page shows 75% of loan raised. (Changed to 83% before I could copy and paste this -- but it still may give you the idea)
Individual Entrepreneur’s page shows Loan Request: $600
                                                       Raised So Far: $600  

Jill,

As far as I can tell the difference between the display on the LEND page list of loans and the lender page is lag time.  Kiva is just so busy that the site is not updating as fast as funds are going in and out of baskets.  I've tried joining a loan using the "Lend $25" link on the Lend tab many times over the past few days and had it tell me "loan already funded".  When I refresh the page, not only is the loan still on it, but the "Lend $25" button is still there, and the same thing happens when I try it again... "loan already funded".

I agree with you, it must be just terribly frustrating for new lenders to have to fight for loans in this way.

-Kerry-

[fredr1c]

It's because folks have 'claimed' their portion of the loan, but have not yet checked out and paid for it. Once everyone has checked out and paid, the loan will read RAISED instead of RAISED SO FAR.

-Scott

I second what Scott says.  People can and do hold amounts in their baskets for loans literally for HOURS. 

How do I know this?  Because I've done it myself accidentally for over FOUR hours.

If you're logged in and using Firefox, for example, with the "Reload Every..." so many minutes thing turned on, you can put loans in your basket and they'll stay there as long as you're logged in and active.

This really does account for the difference between how much has actually been loaned (checked out), and how much is actually free to be put into a basket.

If everything free is being held in one basket or another, but only 72% of a loan is checked out, you won't be able to add it to your basket, and yet the loan still hasn't been completely raised.

Now...the thing to do would be to have a max period of time a person can hold a loan in a basket, regardless of their activity level or whether or not they are logged in.

45 minutes, maybe?  30 minutes? 

If you want a loan, or want to hold a bit of a loan for someone else, you should have a rather short amount of time to get those things done.

There are too few loans, and too many lenders, to leave things as they are -- where a human can hold onto a loan for a sixth of a day or more without actually checking out.

[Jill]

Thanks for trying to answer my question, you guys.  

I'm sure that some of the times, probably many of the times, it is a question of lag time, of so many people "competing" to be in on the so few loans that there are, anymore, that part of the explanation is that it's just a question of the processing of all those lend-clicks getting completed.  I also think that Scott's (and Fred's) suggestion that at least some of the people accounting for that apparently available but exasperatingly not so available 25-35% often are people who got so far as clicking on "Lend Now" or whatever it says to reserve their place, but who haven't yet completed the checking out procedure.

But occasionally, when there's been some loan or another that I really really wanted, for whatever reason, to try to get in on, I've persisted, as only an addict, a fanatic, an idiot, or someone with an awful lot of time on her hands might, and kept returning to those loans, a number of times, to discover that a big chunk of space, $100 or more, all of a sudden is available on it, enabling me to feel "rewarded" for my persistence (otherwise known as IwantitIwantitIwantit stubbornness).  So, I don't know what that's all about.

And yes, Geoff, I agree with you about the idea of Kiva's imposing its $25 max lending limit until there's a constant and ever-renewing flow of loans up again.

Anyway, thanks again, you guys.  It's still a mystery to me, and even more a bit of a worry (for Kiva's sake) and frustration.
Jill

[wthepoo]

There already exists a way to remedy this; it was one Kiva used last Fall when there was a large amount of new lenders to the site due to the "Oprah" effect. Kiva limited the amount one could contribute to an individual loan to $25.00. Why Kiva hasn't instituted this practice again is a mystery to me. It would make it easier for more people who wanted to contribute to a loan to be able to do so and allow/encourage more participation.           
Geoff

Hear, hear, Geoff,

I'm all for it. I haven't been around for the last time this limitation was in place, but I think it's a great way to let "newbies" or less-frequent visitors to kiva.org get their share. I only know that I feel really bad about the GCs I handed out just before the repayment wave - I told the recipients about the choice they would have and that there are so many nice projects to support. And when they come to Kiva, now, what do they see but the "Sold out!" screen or one to four loans that are then often already completely "raised so far". It's really, really, really bad marketing (sorry for repeating myself but it hugely concerns me, especially as Kiva and Microlending in general have received quite some press coverage here in Germany lately, and I feel that many people at least come around and have a look at the website, these days).

I agree that there will be many individual contributions of more than $ 25 now, because people want to invest their credits and have so little choice that they will direct most of their credits to one or two loans at the same time. A cap at $ 25 or $ 50 would help, thus, especially if it is accompanied with a more comprehensive explanation of what is happening, why it is happening and when the situation will probably change. IMHO they simply cannot continue like this until 2009 (which is over three months...). Before long, many people will be frustrated enough to withdraw their credits from Kiva - and I am not sure they will return them anytime soon. Thus, unless Kiva will act pretty quickly, the release of the partial repayments that was intended to set free funds could end up as triggering a severe drain of funds away from Kiva.

I, too, am starting to think about cashing out because (a) funding loans now makes the "marketing situation" even worse, (b) donating to Kiva is nice, but I did not want to give away my "Kiva money" for good, (c) giving away GCs would be outright silly, (d) keeping the money in Kiva credits isn't what I originally intended. But still, I will probably leave the money untouched for now because I don't need US$-funds in my Paypal account and withdrawing to my bank account would cost me the exchange fee (even though the rate is pretty favourable quite now) and because I also hope that Kiva at least can and will generate some interest on my funds.

So, let's hope that the great people at Kiva will think of something, soon - and be it the cap of individual loans at $ 25 or $ 50.
Best wishes,
Wolfgang.

[AccountAbility]

I am surprised that the time limit for baskets has not been reimposed during this period of loan scarcity. 

I'm not crazy about the $25 limit because getting the loans funded is the goal and that limit is in effect artificial "gamesmanship" so everybody can play.   So long as they check out soon, if a lender really lends more than $25, I say "great".

Dan

[saabnet]

Kiva limited the amount one could contribute to an individual loan to $25.00.

I agree with Wolfgang and Geoff, this would be an awesome policy right about now while loans are scarce. It maximizes the number of people who can experience the loaning process. My sister in law has been trying to reloan her $25 Kiva credit for two weeks now. Once we get back to plenty of loans, this policy can be removed again. I think it would be brilliant. All entrepreneurs would still be quickly funded and as many lenders would be able to participate.

-Scott