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Author Topic: Kiva Terms of Use  (Read 22221 times)
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AccountAbility
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« Reply To This #10 on: December 06, 2008, 06:51:42 PM »

True, but... What do you want to see changed and why?

The ToU clearly states you are making a loan. 

Yes, Kiva does use the word "loan" in its Terms of Use.  But the following essentially negates the concept of a loan.

"....You hereby acknowledge and agree that neither Kiva, its Field Partner(s) nor the Borrower(s) will be obligated or pay you any principal (other than to the extent actually received by Kiva from a Field Partner with respect to such Borrower)...."

In financial and contract terms, a loan requires an obligation on the part of the recipient to repay.  The only possible recipients in the Kiva model are Kiva, its Field Partner or the Borrower(s).  The above provision clearly states that none of these have an obligation for the return of the principal of the loan the Kiva "lender" makes (other than if Kiva ends up with some repayments on their hands they are obligated to turn them over to Kiva lenders--which frankly isn't much of an obligation when repayments go delinquent).

The Prosper documentation shows a chain of assignment for a loan obligation which is the right concept, although I don't need a note in my possession.

My concern in this is different than realizing that I as a Kiva lender really have no retained rights to go after delinquencies if Kiva determines that the loan is dead.  I am saying that the obligation to the Kiva lender has to exist to start with, but the Kiva Lender delegates to Kiva the final determination of either pursuing the loan collection or calling it dead.  Then when Kiva calls it dead I end up with a capital loss.

Dan
« Last Edit: December 06, 2008, 06:53:01 PM by AccountAbility » Logged

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RichardF
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« Reply To This #11 on: December 06, 2008, 07:06:10 PM »

Dan, I still don't know how you would change the language to make it acceptable to you.  Can you give an example of what you want to see?
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AccountAbility
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« Reply To This #12 on: December 06, 2008, 07:25:54 PM »

To quote a post on the old thread, here is a non- legalese version of what I would like to see.  (I'll post the "fixed" 1.2 ToU paragraph as soon as I find it again.)

If we cut it down to simple non-legalese, here's what I would like the Terms of Use to Say:

"We at Kiva really want to help the poor through microloans.  We need your help in doing so, particularly by lending your money at no interest so these borrowers can have loans.  We want you to realize this is a risky process, not only because the borrower may not pay it back but because widespread calamities and other problems could cause the MFI Field Partner to run short of cash or even close.  We will do our best within our limited resources to try to get the money back so that it will be available to lend again.  But even so, we may have to declare some loans in default and uncollectible.  If we do so, you must abide by our decision and make no further efforts to reclaim your funds, either from Kiva, the MFI Field Partner or the borrower.  During this whole process we will keep accurate records of your financial transactions with us and keep those records safe and private."

Dan
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AccountAbility
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« Reply To This #13 on: December 06, 2008, 07:36:43 PM »

Terms of Use section 1.2:

"You hereby acknowledge and agree that neither Kiva, its Field Partner(s) nor the Borrower(s) will be obligated or pay you any principal (other than to the extent actually received by Kiva from a Field Partner with respect to such Borrower) interest or other fees or amounts to you or any other Lender in connection with any Loan you make."

I suggest removing the Borrowers from the highlighted sentence above, thereby leaving an obligation intact.

However, to avoid having some lender pursuing a borrower over a defaulted loan, I also suggest that the Terms should specify that each Lender delegates to Kiva and the MFI Field Partner, as the Lender's agent, the exclusive right to determine and declare a loan in default and to be written off.

Dan
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RichardF
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« Reply To This #14 on: December 06, 2008, 09:03:23 PM »

Dan,

Thanks for the reply.  However, I'll admit I still am confused, but I can live with that.  I thought the issue was about the tax status of financial transactions with Kiva.
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AccountAbility
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« Reply To This #15 on: December 06, 2008, 09:23:15 PM »

The tax issue comes up when defaults on Kiva are presented to my tax adviser as capital losses-- and he asks to see where there was a loan obligation created in the first place.

Dan
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RichardF
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« Reply To This #16 on: December 06, 2008, 09:49:33 PM »

So, that gets back to my Prosper Marketplace question.  Do you want to see an assigned promissory note from the Field Partner to Kiva to you?
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AccountAbility
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« Reply To This #17 on: December 06, 2008, 11:39:36 PM »

So, that gets back to my Prosper Marketplace question.  Do you want to see an assigned promissory note from the Field Partner to Kiva to you?

That might be overkill, particularly with language issues etc. 

No, just an acknowledgment in the ToU (or some other official Kiva place) that such a relationship does exist.

Dan
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Diane R
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« Reply To This #18 on: December 07, 2008, 02:15:36 AM »

The tax issue comes up when defaults on Kiva are presented to my tax adviser as capital losses-- and he asks to see where there was a loan obligation created in the first place.

Dan

So.... does that mean there's some chance I could present my MIFEX losses as capital losses on my taxes for 2008??

--Diane.
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Natasha
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« Reply To This #19 on: December 07, 2008, 06:11:58 PM »

So.... does that mean there's some chance I could present my MIFEX losses as capital losses on my taxes for 2008??

--Diane.

Perhaps in the US, but not here in Australia. There are no current tax deductions for us (even for donating to Kiva). The woes of a non US lender... Roll Eyes Cry
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