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Author Topic: Currency Risk  (Read 61972 times)
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David2051
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« Reply To This #670 on: December 23, 2010, 06:33:38 PM »

I think this is the bit that keeps confusing everybody.  Most of us think of a "limit" as something which stops something else from going any further.  Therefore, in the case of currency loss protection, we assume that the Partner will cover all losses until the USD has appreciated by 20% over the local currency - i.e. the first 20% of appreciation.

But this is not what actually happens.  The Partner is actually only required to cover the final 20% of any appreciation.

So if the USD appreciates from LCU(Local Currency Unit)1:USD$1 (or USD$1:LCU1) to LCU1:USD$0.83333 (or USD$1:LCU1.20) they cover the full appreciation from 1:1 to 1:0.83333.

If the USD appreciates further to LCU1:USD$0.80 (or USD$1:LCU1.25) the Partner no longer covers the change from LCU1:USD$1 to LCU1:USD$0.83333 - they cover instead the change from LCU1:USD$0.96 to LCU1:USD$0.80.

If the USD then appreciates even further to LCU1:USD$0.70 the Partner only covers the change from LCU1:USD$0.84 to LCU1:USD$0.70.  Etc.

There might be less confusion (slightly less, it is still going to very confusing if they continue referring to "limits") if Kiva displayed currency exchange rates in a LCU1:USD$x format instead of in a USD$1:LCUx format.

I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you mean.  Can you give some sort of example that explains it more clearly?  Are you saying that you don't think Noah's examples are what happens?  
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YowieFreak
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« Reply To This #671 on: December 23, 2010, 07:05:41 PM »

I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you mean.
I have troubles understanding what I mean!!
Quote
Can you give some sort of example that explains it more clearly?
Probably not.  (But an attempt at something is below.)
Quote
Are you saying that you don't think Noah's examples are what happens?  
No - I am saying that his examples are exactly what happens.  (I disagree with the implementation, given the use of the word "limit", but I think that's just another case of Kiva saying one thing but meaning another.)



In Noah's examples:
Example 1:  The partner covers the full appreciation from 1Shilling:1USD to 1Shilling:0.90909USD, i.e. they cover USD$9.091 of FX loss on a USD$100 loan.

Example 2:  The partner covers the full appreciation from 1Shilling:1USD to 1Shilling:0.83333USD, i.e. they cover USD$16.667 of FX loss.

Example 3:  The partner doesn't get "limited" to having to cover the portion of the appreciation from 1Shilling:1USD to 1Shilling:0.83333USD (i.e. USD$16.667) - they instead only have to cover the final part of the appreciation from 1Shilling:0.80000USD to 1Shilling:0.66667USD (i.e. USD$13.333).

Example 4:  Again the partner doesn't have to cover the first part of the appreciation from 1Shilling:1USD to 1Shilling:0.83333USD (i.e. USD$16.667) - they only have to cover the appreciation from 1Shilling:0.00012USD to 1Shilling:0.00010USD (i.e. USD$0.002).
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RichardF
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« Reply To This #672 on: December 23, 2010, 09:07:12 PM »

And then if we could all get clear as to the exact dates that this formula uses in actual loan situations we just might have it! (Especially as it works in the net billing instances)

Dan
The initial rate designation seems to be specific enough Yes (except that it's unknown!).  Roll Eyes

Quote
Exchange Rate:
The amount of local currency for this entrepreneur that is equivalent to 1 US Dollar. The exchange rate on a particular loan represents the rate on the date the loan was added by the Field Partner into the Kiva system.

The Kiva Exchange rate is updated nightly from www.xe.com.
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David2051
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« Reply To This #673 on: December 23, 2010, 09:08:00 PM »

No - I am saying that his examples are exactly what happens. 

Ok, that's good.

(I disagree with the implementation, given the use of the word "limit", but I think that's just another case of Kiva saying one thing but meaning another.)

I think this is the bit that keeps confusing everybody.  Most of us think of a "limit" as something which stops something else from going any further.  Therefore, in the case of currency loss protection, we assume that the Partner will cover all losses until the USD has appreciated by 20% over the local currency - i.e. the first 20% of appreciation.

I think that assumption is true.  I think Kiva is saying the field partner will never have to pay back more than 120% of the loan amount in the local currency.

But this is not what actually happens.  The Partner is actually only required to cover the final 20% of any appreciation.

I just don't know what you mean by the "final" 20%.

To put this back into Noah's example, on the day the loan is posted to Kiva (the day the partner commits to funding through Kiva, i.e. the day it leaves the partner's hands) if the exchange rate is  1 USD = 1 shilling, the 20% currency loss limit to the partner means that the worst case exchange rate for the the life of this Kiva loan will be 1 USD = 1.20 shillings.  That is a hard limit that protects the partner from catastrophic losses. 

Lets say the borrower's regular payment is 1 shilling each month.  The borrower never has any currency other than the local currency, so from their point of view there is no currency risk.  They just pay their 1 shilling each month, and since the exchange rate on the day the loan was posted was 1 USD = 1 shilling, their balance, from the lender perspective, goes down by 1 dollar each month.

If a 1 shilling payment is posted later on in the loan and the exchange rate as of the prior billing date is now 1 USD = 3 shillings, the field partner will hand over 1.2 shillings (because their loss is limited to 20%).  The partner has paid 1.2/3 USD or 40 cents, but the borrower paid his shilling so his account balance needs to go down by 1 dollar.  Since the lenders were only repaid 40 cents, the other 60 cents is lost to the currency exchange.

When it's stated in terms of 1 shilling = 0.000... USD, I just can't follow what is being said.  What makes sense to me is that if the local currency devaluates, the partner would have to repay more and more of the local currency for each dollar the balance is supposed to go down.  Kiva is providing a hard limit to protect them, saying that the most they would ever have to repay is 120% of the local currency compared to what it was when the loan was posted. 

I don't particularly like assuming this currency risk, but I don't see where there is a problem between what Kiva says it is doing and what Noah's examples show.  It seems to make sense to me.  What am I missing here?
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RichardF
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« Reply To This #674 on: December 23, 2010, 09:31:08 PM »

Okay, let's say this is part of the "net billing" process.  As far as I can tell, Kiva always over collects from the lenders whenever currency exchange is involved.  What happens to the overage collected by Kiva?  Is Kiva sending the partner the full amount collected in excess of the loan in the partner's currency, or only the exact amount of the loan in the partner's currency?  If a currency exchange loss to the partner is involved, it matters (and adds up) at the level of the partner's portfolio whether the excess dollar amounts are converted.  And, if Kiva does not send the excess to the partner, where is it?  Are the answers to these questions already posted somewhere?
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David2051
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« Reply To This #675 on: December 23, 2010, 09:49:22 PM »

Okay, let's say this is part of the "net billing" process.  As far as I can tell, Kiva always over collects from the lenders whenever currency exchange is involved. 

I thought they always collected too much unless the borrower's loan actually was an even multiple of $25, regardless of currency exchange.  I remember this being discussed before, perhaps in some other context.  We talked about the suggestion of the partners returning the overage in the first payment, or Kiva posting it as a repayment before sending the remainder to the partner.

I have the idea that the Kiva doesn't really handle any foreign currencies.  I'm thinking they partner's do the exchanges and deal in dollars with Kiva, but I don't remember why I think that...

Huh?
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« Reply To This #676 on: December 23, 2010, 10:02:26 PM »

I agree Kiva only does business in dollars.  My point is that non-dollar loans almost never are in multiples of $25, and that Kiva appears to always over collect lender funds in those cases.  I recall lender discussions about this, but never an authoritative answer to the questions about what happens to the excess funds. For this discussion, I'm saying it makes a difference where the dollars go, not to mention those other discussions about partner-posted repayment schedules that borrowers seem to frequently under-repay for unexplained reasons...
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« Reply To This #677 on: December 24, 2010, 03:21:16 AM »

http://groups.google.com/group/build-kiva/browse_thread/thread/ad23d6789ab1e911
"      
Noah Balmer      
Vis profil   Oversett til Oversatt (vis original)
    Flere alternativer 16 Des, 14:21
Fra: Noah Balmer <n...@kiva.org>
Dato: Thu, 16 Dec 2010 05:21:14 -0800
Lokal: Tors 16 Des 2010 14:21
Emne: Foreign currency exchange loss math
Videresend | Skriv ut | Enkeltmelding | Vis original | Rapporter denne meldingen | Finn meldinger av denne brukeren

Since it's been coming up in other forums, and was just touched on here as
well, this might be an opportune time to address a topic that many people
are confused about.  I've seen several incorrect interpretations of the
forex loss math floating around lately.  The correct description is in the
help text on "currency exchange loss", linked from any borrower profile
page:

" Kiva offers Field Partners the option to protect themselves against severe
currency fluctuations *(a US dollar appreciation of over 20% relative to the
Local Currency*). "

The math for this is actually pretty simple, but it's very hard to visualize
without examples, and it's very easy to jump to inaccurate conclusions.
Here are some hypothetical examples that might help.

Example one:
On date one, 1USD=1Shilling.  I lend 100USD, which is converted to 100
shillings.
On date two, 1USD=1.1Shilling.  The partner wants to repay me.  In order to
buy 100 USD , they'll have to spend 110 shillings.  They'll be paying an
extra 10% due to currency fluctuation... that 10% was not over the 20%
threshold of USD appreciation that we expect partners to bear, so the
partner has to pay it. They pay 110 shillings, I get all 100USD back

Example two:
Date one is the same as in the last example. 1USD=1Shilling. I lend 100USD,
which is converted to 100 shillings.
On date two, 1USD=1.2Shilling.  The partner wants to repay me.  In order to
buy 100 USD , they'll have to spend 120 shillings.  They'll be paying an
extra 20% due to currency fluctuation... that's exactly on the 20% threshold
of USD appreciation that we expect partners to bear, so the partner has to
pay it. They pay 120 shillings, I get all 100USD back

Example three:
Date one is the same as in the other examples. 1USD=1Shilling. I lend
100USD, which is converted to 100 shillings.
On date two, 1USD=1.5Shilling.  The partner wants to repay me, but the USD
has appreciated by 50%.  In order to buy 100USD, they'd have to spend 150
shillings. That's above the 20% threshold, so here's what happens. They buy
120 (100+20%) shillings worth of dollars.  At today's exchange rate, they
can get 80USD for their 120 shillings (120*(1/1.5)), so they spend 20% more
than they got, and pay me just 80USD.  It's less than I lent them in USD,
but more than I lent them in shillings.

Example four:
Date one is the same as in the other examples. 1USD=1Shilling. I lend
100USD, which is converted to 100 shillings.
Somewhere along the way, there's a catastrophic currency devaluation in the
partner's country.
On Date two, 1USD=10,000Shillings. The Partner wants to repay me, but the
USD has appreciated by 1,000,000%.  The math is the same as before.  They
pay what they got in shillings, plus 20%.  Now (120*1/10,000)=.012, or 1.2
cents.  That's what their money, that used to be worth 120USD back on day
one, is worth today.

Now I, as the lender, might think it's unfair that I lent 100USD and I'm now
only owed 1.2 cents, but imagine being on the other side of the transaction.
 Imagine that you, one day, borrowed $100.  A while later, it's time to
repay, but you're told that in order to repay your $100 loan, you have to
come up with one million dollars (100*10,000).  On top of this, you now live
in a country that's in the middle of a major economic crisis, and very
likely a war, too.
Assuming you were someone who needed that $100 loan, you're going to have
one heck of a time coming up with a million dollars.

The thing to notice here is that the 20% is not 20% of any USD amount.  It's
limit, at 20%, of appreciation of USD over the partner's local currency.
 Any attempt an an explanation that talks about limits at  N dollars,
whether N is 20%, or 120%, or 80%, or 116%  of the USD amount that was
originally lent, is in error.  The limit is calculated from the other
currency's perspective, and since the exchange rate can fluctuate to
arbitrary magnitudes in any direction, the USD equivalent of that limit can
be literally any positive value.

I hope these examples are helpful.

-Noah "
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carien
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« Reply To This #678 on: August 15, 2011, 02:40:18 PM »

First time I lost some cents on currency risk the country Uganda well a few cents no big deal
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Skimmis
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« Reply To This #679 on: April 14, 2012, 02:00:58 AM »

The deal will be much bigger now:
http://www.kivafriends.org/index.php/topic,5925.msg94510.html#msg94510
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