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Author Topic: MFI's Extortionate Interest Rates ... up to 58% !  (Read 25333 times)
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Australia
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« Reply To This #10 on: April 24, 2009, 12:39:57 AM »

The people borrowing from the MFIs are getting a much better deal than if they were to try and take the loan out from the local banks (or sharks).

The "local bank" consumer interest rate on loans is: 32.8%
The "local bank" micro business interest rate on loans is: 35.5%
... but the MFI micro-loans interest rate is: 58%

<cough><cough> I don't think the MFI is a better deal!

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And I'm thinking that while the rate is a bit high, the access to credit at all is a great thing.

But at what cost?

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Most of the borrowers don't qualify for "regular' loans from regular banks.  Banks aren't going to deal with the impoverished, the folks that need a couple hundred bucks, etc.

Fair point... but there is a reason why they don't lend to the impoverished: they can't afford to pay it back. MFIs are criticised for a similar reason: that they don't loan to the very poor but only to those who can afford to repay. And of course, MFIs don't lend to the impoverished for similar reasons as the banks.

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They are in the business of lending bigger amounts to bigger business with credit ratings and such.

Not really - see my post above where Peruvian bank rates are detailed for "commercial loans", "consumer loans" and "micro business loans".

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The old vicious cycle of having to have money to borrow money.  The folks that a loan would do the most good aren't able to get one.

Not sure I buy this one. None of the borrowers I've seen so far on Kiva fall into the category of not having money.

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Plus, in a lot of countries,the MFIs are willing to lend to women, while the traditional lenders are not.  Places like Tanzania, women don't have the same property rights and financial rights as men, so the banks won't lend to them at all, but the MFIs do.  So while it's a higher rate than a man would pay at a regular bank, for a Tanzanian woman, even the  higher rate loan offers an opportunity that she would have not been offered at all at any rate elsewhere.

Another fair point; not sure whether it applies in Peru... I'll do some more digging.

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And if the person's business succeeds and grows and they prove their credit worthiness either through the assets and track record of their business itself or through their history of being good borrowers from the MFI, they can improve their access to "regular" banking channels.

A good point, but at what cost? 58% annual interest (and to address an earlier poster's average length of loan/average size of loan issues, the one I was looking at did run for the full 12 months at an interest rate of 58% and was ~$1,000 amount).

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While they're starting or growing their business through money from an MFI, the rate may be a bit high, but eventually it'll help them establish themselves enough to get a much lower, more acceptable by American standards, type rate at a regular bank.


Sounds reasonable except that a "bit high" in this circumstance is 58%. One would expect a relatively high default rate, or delinquency rate at the very least, but the quoted figure for the MFI for both statistics is 0% which seems very hard to believe.
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YowieFreak
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« Reply To This #11 on: April 24, 2009, 05:06:29 AM »

Sounds reasonable except that a "bit high" in this circumstance is 58%.

If 58% is high, I'm sure the entrepreneurs will choose to get their money elsewhere.  The fact that they don't makes me think that they certainly don't think it is high.  (As far as I know, taking a loan out is not a legal obligation in any of the coutries that Kiva allows us to provide loans to, so the entrepreneurs must be exercising free-will in borrowing the money.)

Ian

P.S.  If I was in these entrepreneurs' position (i.e. no credit history, and with the only real way of obtaining a credit history being to pay 120% p.a.) and someone came along and said that I could borrow USD$1000 for 12 months, and be given training to help me improve my business, and it was only going to cost me USD$580 - I would jump at the chance!!  How many Business Development courses are available here in Australia which would cost less than AUD$800?  Probably none.  And, if that's so, then the "interest" component of the USD$580 is effectively zero percent - a much, much, much better rate than 120%!  And even better than the banks' 32.8%.
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wthepoo
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« Reply To This #12 on: April 24, 2009, 05:53:48 AM »

If 58% is high, I'm sure the entrepreneurs will choose to get their money elsewhere.  The fact that they don't makes me think that they certainly don't think it is high.  (As far as I know, taking a loan out is not a legal obligation in any of the coutries that Kiva allows us to provide loans to, so the entrepreneurs must be exercising free-will in borrowing the money.)

Ian

P.S.  If I was in these entrepreneurs' position (i.e. no credit history, and with the only real way of obtaining a credit history being to pay 120% p.a.) and someone came along and said that I could borrow USD$1000 for 12 months, and be given training to help me improve my business, and it was only going to cost me USD$580 - I would jump at the chance!!  How many Business Development courses are available here in Australia which would cost less than AUD$800?  Probably none.  And, if that's so, then the "interest" component of the USD$580 is effectively zero percent - a much, much, much better rate than 120%!  And even better than the banks' 32.8%.

Ian,
I basically agree with your reasoning, but yet I have to add two reservations:

1. We (well: I, at least) don't know whether all the MFIs provide and all the borrowers receive adequate training and what it looks like.

2. You are assuming (I think) that (a) borrowers know about alternative money sources and (b) have some kind of business plan which allows them to tell whether a loan at 58% interest will still be profitable and (c) make a rational choice. I guess that in many if not most cases this is true, but it is still possible that (like many consumers here and probably in Australia, too) some borrowers are so focused on getting money/liquidity right then and there that they don't really care about the interest rate and actually about paying back. (of course, a good training [1.] would make them change this attitude very soon)

Overall, while I still think the 58% average (!) interest rate (so we don't know whether it also applies to the loan of about $1,000 for 12 months Australia mentioned) of MFP will prove to be not usurious but reasonable in one way or another, I agree with Australia that Kiva should (a) strive for (even?) more transparency here and (b) make sure that the interest rates of their Field Partners are compatible with the mission to "alleviate poverty" (which hopefully Kiva does already - but I would still love to know more about it).

Best wishes,
Wolfgang.

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Australia
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« Reply To This #13 on: April 24, 2009, 07:48:43 AM »

Overall, while I still think the 58% average (!) interest rate (so we don't know whether it also applies to the loan of about $1,000 for 12 months Australia mentioned) of MFP will prove to be not usurious but reasonable in one way or another

Egads... I'd missed the fact that 58% was the average interest rate!

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Australia
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« Reply To This #14 on: April 24, 2009, 09:01:32 AM »

If 58% is high, I'm sure the entrepreneurs will choose to get their money elsewhere.  The fact that they don't makes me think that they certainly don't think it is high.

It's hard to speculate, but recent blog posts by Kiva Fellows indicated that some borrowers were obtaining Kiva loans and repaying them with overseas remittances, when they could have used the remittances in the first place and avoided the interest altogether. Not necessarily the most rational choice. Others were obtaining loans, purely because of peer pressure (especially in places where group loans were commonplace). In another instance, MFI "loan officers" were rewarded based on the number of loans they made. These anecdotes raise questions about MFI questionable practices, at least to my mind.

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(As far as I know, taking a loan out is not a legal obligation in any of the countries that Kiva allows us to provide loans to, so the entrepreneurs must be exercising free-will in borrowing the money.)

Free... maybe, maybe not (see above), but not necessarily informed.

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P.S.  If I was in these entrepreneurs' position (i.e. no credit history, and with the only real way of obtaining a credit history being to pay 120% p.a.) and someone came along and said that I could borrow USD$1000 for 12 months,

The borrower in question was on their 7th loan... so any suggestion of "no credit history" is inapplicable in this case.

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and be given training to help me improve my business, and it was only going to cost me USD$580 - I would jump at the chance!!  How many Business Development courses are available here in Australia which would cost less than AUD$800?  Probably none.  And, if that's so, then the "interest" component of the USD$580 is effectively zero percent - a much, much, much better rate than 120%!  And even better than the banks' 32.8%.

It might be worth having a look at the Kiva Fellows blog - statements like "a short teaching segment at the beginning of the monthly communal bank meeting. However, a lot of the clients don’t see the value in the teaching sessions and it is challenging to impart useful knowledge when the pressure is to keep the sessions short" illustrate the value of some so-called MFI "business development" courses. You might not consider them such a great deal in those circumstances, eh?
« Last Edit: April 24, 2009, 09:07:24 AM by Australia » Logged
chris
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« Reply To This #15 on: April 24, 2009, 09:59:29 AM »

One would expect a relatively high default rate, or delinquency rate at the very least, but the quoted figure for the MFI for both statistics is 0% which seems very hard to believe.

I don't find it hard to believe; I've been lending for years and have yet to see a default on my Peruvian loans:

Margarita, Nueva Ilusion Group, Florisa, Adriana Ugarte Vda. De Huacasi, Ruth Brincano Villafana, Aparicia Cinicio García, Nora Ricardina Quinteromejia Zumaet, Elidia Paima Rojas, Rosa Tello Vasquez, Olmit Sanchez Pinto, Diocelina Gonzales Garcia, Edith, Suliana, Miscelánea, Olga

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Egads... I'd missed the fact that 58% was the average interest rate!

It's the average annualized interest rate.

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It doesn't look to me like a Peruvian MFI, which obtains its Kiva funds at a maximum cost of 10% (annual FX $US hedge), is passing any saving on to its borrowers at a rate of 58%.

MFIs lend to many entrepreneurs, and only a portion of their funds come from Kiva.  Accessing funds from Kiva does not mean that a particular borrower has a lower cost to the MFI; the lower cost of funds from Kiva lowers the cost of funds for the MFI as a whole.  Entrepreneurs with loans on Kiva don't get preferential rates compared to other entrepreneurs with loans from the same MFI.

Further, even though Kiva doesn't charge MFIs an interest rate, accessing loans from Kiva is not free.  Aside from inflation and change rate changes, there is additional cost of posting updates to kiva.org.  This includes equipment and staffing.

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Peruvian Banks loan to micro businesses at a rate of 35.5%.

It's not fair to compare this rate with MFIs' rates without additional details.  What region of Peru is this for?  Who is eligible for this rate?  What is the term? Are there fees?  What is the minimum loan amount?  How do clients make payments (MFI loan officers travel to clients in rural areas)?

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recent blog posts by Kiva Fellows indicated that some borrowers were obtaining Kiva loans and repaying them with overseas remittances, when they could have used the remittances in the first place and avoided the interest altogether. Not necessarily the most rational choice.

Why do you say this is not rational?  Businesses don't only take on debt when they are in trouble.  Increased cash flow allows businesses to take advantage of opportunities that they would otherwise miss out on.  For instance, I've lent to several entrepreneurs who needed a loan to stock up seed for planting.  The crop wouldn't be harvested for months after the loan was needed.  They started paying off the loan before the proceeds from sale of the crop were available, using money from another income source. 
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Diane R
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« Reply To This #16 on: April 24, 2009, 10:50:13 AM »

Thank you for that clear response, chris.

In support of your first point, I'll mention that I have nearly 300 loans in Peru over the past two years, with all of Kiva's Peruvian MFIs, and have not experienced a single default there either.


--Diane.
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waywardcats
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« Reply To This #17 on: April 24, 2009, 11:04:04 AM »


Fair point... but there is a reason why they don't lend to the impoverished: they can't afford to pay it back. MFIs are criticised for a similar reason: that they don't loan to the very poor but only to those who can afford to repay. And of course, MFIs don't lend to the impoverished for similar reasons as the banks.


Hi Australia,

I wanted to address this particular point.  First, please read this story about how Muhammad Yunus began giving loans.

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In 1974, Professor Muhammad Yunus, a Bangladeshi economist from Chittagong University, led his students on a field trip to a poor village. They interviewed a woman who made bamboo stools, and learnt that she had to borrow the equivalent of 15p to buy raw bamboo for each stool made. After repaying the middleman, sometimes at rates as high as 10% a week, she was left with a penny profit margin. Had she been able to borrow at more advantageous rates, she would have been able to amass an economic cushion and raise herself above subsistence level.

Realizing that there must be something terribly wrong with the economics he was teaching, Yunus took matters into his own hands, and from his own pocket lent the equivalent of ? 17 to 42 basket-weavers. He found that it was possible with this tiny amount not only to help them survive, but also to create the spark of personal initiative and enterprise necessary to pull themselves out of poverty.

Against the advice of banks and government, Yunus carried on giving out 'micro-loans', and in 1983 formed the Grameen Bank, meaning 'village bank' founded on principles of trust and solidarity. In Bangladesh today, Grameen has 1,084 branches, with 12,500 staff serving 2.1 million borrowers in 37,000 villages. On any working day Grameen collects an average of $1.5 million in weekly installments. Of the borrowers, 94% are women and over 98% of the loans are paid back, a recovery rate higher than any other banking system. Grameen methods are applied in projects in 58 countries, including the US, Canada, France, The Netherlands and Norway.

Yunus tells an expanded version of this story in his book "Creating A World Without Poverty".  He went to many banks and tried to convince them to offer small loans to the poor.  None of them would do it.  After not finding anyone else who would give out micro-loans he did it himself and thus Grameen Bank was founded.

The issue he says is not that the poor cannot afford to pay back loans, it is that the banks believe that the poor cannot afford to pay back loans.  In fact, the poor are capable of paying back loans and managing money, it is just that most have never had an opportunity to show that.  That is the fundamental reason that microloans exist; to help the poor have a chance to prove that they can help themselves with just a little help.

So I would say that if there are MFIs out there who are lending not to the poorest of the poor in their areas that they are guilty of the same misconception that the banks continue to hold onto.  If that is of concern to you, then I would suggest that you look for MFis that do loan to the truly impoverished.  Look for example to institutions like GHAPE and LAPO adn concentrate your lending dollars there.

Just my  Piggy Bank Piggy Bank

-Kerry-

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"Our daughters can contribute just as much to society as our sons, and our common prosperity will be advanced by allowing all humanity - men and women - to reach their full potential. I do not believe that women must make the same choices as men in order to be equal, and I respect those women who choose to live their lives in traditional roles. But it should be their choice. That is why the United States will partner with any Muslim-majority country to support expanded literacy for girls, and to help young women pursue employment through micro-financing that helps people live their dreams." - President Barack Obama, June 4, 2009
wthepoo
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« Reply To This #18 on: April 24, 2009, 11:13:14 AM »

I don't find it hard to believe; I've been lending for years and have yet to see a default on my Peruvian loans:

In support of your first point, I'll mention that I have nearly 300 loans in Peru over the past two years, with all of Kiva's Peruvian MFIs, and have not experienced a single default there either.


There has not been a "Kiva default" of any Peruvian loan in Kiva's history.

That does not mean, though, that no Kiva entrepreneur/group from Peru ever defaulted... it could well be that in single/some/many cases the MFIs stepped in either because of a guarantee or because they ex post decided to do so to keep their statistics without a blemish. I don't know whether that has been the case (I consider it rather likely, though), let alone how frequently.

Best wishes,
Wolfgang.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2009, 11:13:42 AM by wthepoo » Logged
Gryzio
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« Reply To This #19 on: April 24, 2009, 11:13:55 AM »

I really not want to make this long, so, hope it make a point. I may not even understand what being talked about.  Undecided
I remember back in the 70's here in the U.S.A. a friend bought a $150 color TV and borrowed the money from his bank @ <10%
Today try to borrow $150 at a U.S.A. bank. It probably cost them that much for paper work. Banks pay for our credit reports (though it probably passed to the consumer), that how TransAmerica or whoever make their money off of us and not pay us royalties. I do know of banks that give/gave Credit Cards to buy the TV @ 20-24% and people have those cards. I think it is way too much to pay and I not have those cards. True this may be changing with the recent trend.
Also, there are rent to own stores sell Laptops for $1,200 that I can buy for $800 easy and maybe less. I not know what the % interest is on top of the over priced Laptop. But, I guess people are buying them.
In short, what I use for example above I feel is a rip off and will save my money and pay cash. But, for others it a way to get a TV or Laptop and they do it and are happy.
So, I offer my money to the MFI's to help/use those who will be happy. I guess there are some like me and feel the % interest is too high and not use that service.
Some may prefer a less expensive approach and use resources like CCF and Heifer International.
http://www.christianchildrensfund.org/
http://www.heifer.org/
But, this is the individual choice of the people needing my help and the individual choice of those helping.
Some choose to buy their chickens @ 35% >    and some choose free chickens.  Wink
« Last Edit: April 24, 2009, 11:17:02 AM by Gryzio » Logged

We do not want money, we want what money buys!
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