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Author Topic: Cockfighting loan  (Read 43477 times)
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Jan & John
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« Reply To This #130 on: April 29, 2010, 11:36:01 AM »

Someone from the environmental group team posted this article on the team's message board.

Article from ANDA (the News Agency of Animal Rights) on the KIVA loans that violate the rights of animals and this www.kiva.org/lend/183580 in particular.

Here's the loan:  www.kiva.org/lend/183580

Here's the link to the article:  www.anda.jor.br/?p=58981

Here's the article translated from Portuguese to English via Google Translator:

<snip>

"Justice must be universal and go beyond what is technically legal. It has to be applied to all living beings on this planet and nature which keeps the body alive in operation. The prospect vegan does not include this one-sided exceptionalist the human element in the Earth Mother. So I invite all vegans who are reading this text in their search very carefully the policy of an NGO before giving its support to any institution. You could be supporting animal exploitation per table."
 

Thanks for taking the time to translate, Patricia...
I have highlighted what for me is crucial...
Kiva should not be hiding behind technicalities.
I don't think Kiva can change the world...
However, I would - at a minimum - like Kiva to tell us that they have notified their MFI's that this practice is not legal in the US and to please respect those laws when posting. 
I also appreciated the comment that Kiva...
Quote
gave me an answer impersonal and totally ignored my concern.
I have felt this way many times in return emails from customer service, that I was getting a brush-off.

I still lend because I do not wish to penalize other borrowers and the Kiva concept is a good one. 
I do however, lend much more carefully now.
-jan-
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David2051
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« Reply To This #131 on: April 29, 2010, 12:21:13 PM »

I was glad to receive a team message about this article from the Palestine team, so it is evidently being shared widely, which I think is very good. 

I think some organizations continue to exist only because they have no true competition.  If they did they would have to clean their act up or cease to exist...
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« Reply To This #132 on: April 29, 2010, 02:03:17 PM »

I still lend because I do not wish to penalize other borrowers and the Kiva concept is a good one. 
I do however, lend much more carefully now.

Jan,

This expresses my sentiments exactly.

Patricia
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« Reply To This #133 on: April 29, 2010, 06:16:24 PM »

Alan, I see what your saying, but I think there have been more loans than just the ones you counted.  Some of them did not mention it in the write up, but the photos showed the paraphernalia in the yard, etc.  I remember the first time I asked what made people think a particular one was a cockfighting loan and I got an education quick! 
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« Reply To This #134 on: April 29, 2010, 07:24:14 PM »

This post is predominantly meant to be informative. Hopefully to provide some facts & simply correct a few misunderstandings and/or misconceptions.
Quote
While I don't want for an instant to minimize the concern over cockfighting, fwiw I did a search on all loans for "cockfight" and came up with 4, including the one that is currently basketed. Of the three others, all long since repaid, two definitely had to do with cockfighting, and the third mentioned incidentally that the client's husband was in the business, though the loan was completely unrelated.
The reason a search only shows 4 cockfighting or related loans is because once a loan is refunded, it "disappears" from the Kiva search option. (It is like Kiva takes it off the books so to speak).
Why Kiva does this I can't say definitively although I have a theory.

Here is the full list of cockfighting (or related) loans:

http://www.kiva.org/lend/17882
Graciela is 23 years old. Her husband works training roosters for the typical cockfights common in the area. Graciela works selling shoes from catalogs
Activity: Shoe Sales      
Loan Use:    Sales of footwear

http://www.kiva.org/lend/36187
Sara Elva Vasquez Rodriquez runs a cockfighting business in the rural jungle town of Jepelacio, San Martin. Cockfighting is a passion for people all over Peru, including major urban areas.
Activity: Retail
Loan Use:  With the loan she would like to buy a freezer to keep various goods she serves her customers

http://www.kiva.org/lend/60965
Jenny is a primary school teacher by profession... She earns a living by raising and selling poultry, as well as raising cockfighters which she either rents or sells.... She begins selling the poultry chickens every 25 days, while the cockfighters are major competitors in coliseums.
Activity: Poultry
Loan Use:    Construction of suitable pens for raising her chickens and fighting cocks

http://www.kiva.org/lend/99058 **
Verencia Enjambre raises chickens for a living.... She has many cocks in her farm which she sells at Php 2,500 each.
Activity:  Poultry
Loan Use:    To buy feed for the chickens
Refunded by Kiva

http://www.kiva.org/lend/106842 **
William... is 25 years old and single. He studied pharmacy in university, and now he raises fighting cocks.
Activity:  Animal Sales
Loan Use:    William needs a loan of 1500 soles, which he'll invest in rooster feed and tournament registration fees.
Refunded by Finca Peru

http://www.kiva.org/lend/112697 **
The family raises poultry in their barangay (neighborhood or district).... She seeks a new loan of Php 5,000.00 to buy additional chickens and feed.
Activity:  Poultry     
Loan Use:    Purchase 60 sacks of animal feed
Refunded by PMPC

http://www.kiva.org/lend/183580
Current loan
Raul... is single and his desire to improve his life is evident because he also raises gamecocks. Cockfighting, which is a combat between two roosters of the same species also known as "fine birds of combat", was created by humans for their enjoyment.
Activity:  Motorcycle Transport     
Loan Use:  Purchase of spare parts

So the current number of loans for or related to cockfighting are 7 (or 6 depending on your point of view), not really 3 or 2.
Actually there is an 8th loan that strongly suggests it is for someone who is in the cockfighting business. However, since the loan description is vague & it is currently being investigated by Opportunity International via its Field Partner, I haven't included it here.
** Loans that don't show up in a search for cockfight.

The most striking example of loans that are hard to find is WITEP
Kiva Entrepreneurs: 306
Total Loans: $4,500
$4500 divided by 306 = $14.71
Average loan size of $14.71  Huh?

See all loans from this field partner >>
Found 5 loans sorted by New to Old.
http://www.kiva.org/lend?partner_id=11&status=All&sortBy=New+to+Old
Total Loans - $4500

Refunded WITEP loans
Found 301 loans sorted by New to Old.
http://www.kiva.org/lend?partner_id=11&status=Refunded&sortBy=New+to+Old
Refund Rate  - 5,606.67%   Shocked
Amount of Refunded Loans  - $252,300     
Number Of Refunded Loans - 301
(This information is available if one expands the Total Loans & Refund Rate lower down on the FP page under Repayment Performance on Kiva)

 
Quote
Four (or really 3 or 2) loans out of nearly 200,000 is a very small number, and while it should be zero, I think the article goes a little overboard with its statement that Kiva supports animal abuse.

Hmmmm??   Scratch Head
I wonder how many banks someone would have to rob before being considered a bank robber Huh?   Hmmm
How many people would someone have to rape before being properly labeled a rapist Huh?   Thinking
How many children would someone have to molest before correctly being called a pedophile Huh?   Search
How many animals/people would someone have to torture, maim or kill before being accurately labeled as a degenerate, sadist or psychopath Huh?   Scratch Head 
If someone led an exemplary life for 30, 40, 50, 60, even 70 years or more and then murdered someone, wouldn't they then indeed be a murderer Huh?   Thinking 

Quote
The article could give the impression that this is a common sort of loan for Kiva, and in fact it simply isn't.  I think it is important to express the views of the lender community to Kiva that many feel deeply upset about any loans for this kind of business, legal or not.

I agree that people should express their own view.
Whether or not this kind of loan is common doesn't mitigate the fact that Kiva, by allowing their Field Partners to post loans that are for animal cruelty, bloodsports etc., is supporting & promoting this behavior.

Support - a person or thing that supports, as financially
a person or thing that gives aid or assistance.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/support

Promote - to help or encourage to exist or flourish; further
to aid in organizing (business undertakings)
to encourage the sales, acceptance, etc., of (a product), esp. through advertising or other publicity.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/promote



Quote
It might also be useful for Kiva to communicate with its field partners that this kind of business is upsetting to many of its lenders,
Kiva has consistently refused to do so (citing more than once "cultural imperialism")

Quote
and that they should refrain from incidental mention of it, as in the case of the 3rd loan mentioned above. That is, if the client is, for example, a woman running a shop and the loan is for the shop, but the client's husband is in the cockfighting business, that shouldn't taint the loan in my view. Better simply not to mention the husband's business.
I completely agree. Why taint or prejudice a loan with a known (at least by Kiva) controversial topic/practice when it is unrelated to the actual loan purpose  Huh?

From a message to a Kiva Lender from the Field Partner EDESA:
Contrary to other countries of Central America, in Costa Rica cockfighting is not permitted. In EDESA we do not give loans for this or any other illegal activity.  In our credit statutes we also have strict regulations that do not permit loans which may cause any negative social or environmental impact.

So there are some countries, even in Latin America, where the practice of bloodsports is frowned upon notwithstanding the spurious argument or claim that cockfighting is a "part of the culture".
« Last Edit: April 29, 2010, 07:46:25 PM by bikeme » Logged
YowieFreak
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« Reply To This #135 on: May 01, 2010, 01:22:55 AM »

With only 45 minutes left to go before Raul's loan request expires, it seems certain that someone has successfully basket-hoarded the loan (unless Kiva's systems have been playing up for the last few days) in order to ensure that Raul has to continue resorting to cock-fighting in order to provide his family with the sort of lifestyle that most of us would consider an absolute minimum.

All I can say is that whoever has done this must really hate animals and enjoy seeing them continue to suffer.

Kiva is meant to be about changing the lives of people for the better - not forcing people to continue to employ methods which we ourselves would refuse to use in order to survive.

Sad  Cry Sad

I just hope that all those people who say that Kiva should do things in order to stop animal-cruelty throughout the world will write to Kiva condemning the actions of whoever basketed the loan.
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David2051
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« Reply To This #136 on: May 01, 2010, 10:59:23 AM »

Raul's loan was pre-disbursed so hopefully he will improve his situation. 

What I don't understand is why on a loan for parts, or whatever, someone went to great lengths to glorify cock fighting.  Really the description was just over the top, and I don't get what their motivation was to write it up that way.  Do you think that the loan officer writing it was a customer of Raul's or something?  It just seemed really odd to me.
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« Reply To This #137 on: May 01, 2010, 11:02:59 AM »

I see that at least 16 people felt Raul Gerardo deserved help with his loan.

It could be someone decided to support him so he no longer will *need* to raise gamecocks any longer...
It could be people just needing that country to fill their collection...
It could be Kiva's autolending kicking in... might that be the reason for the basket tie-up Huh?

I didn't lend...
however, my biggest worry is that by letting the MFI's know we disapprove, they will just not tell us that part of the story in the future. 

Our lending right now is based on very little data and I want more information, not less.

The pride that the loan officer took in writing about the gaming shows me how deeply ingrained in their culture it is and the information was being shared in a positive manner.

My opinion is that our complains will just drive it underground...
I can hear the loan officers saying to each other...
"oops, that is a Kiva loan, take that part out!"

This issue is much too big to be solved through Kiva lending. 
It is a legal battle that needs to be fought by animal rights activists around the world and in the countries involved. 

It is though, a shame that the loan did not expire.
-jan-

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"The place God calls you to is the place where your deepest gladness and the world's deepest hunger meet" - Fredrick Buechner (in Wishful Thinking).
"Every child should be well born, well fed, well taught, well housed and well treated."
Maude Riley, Alberta Council on Child and Family Welfare 1923
"Each of us feels that we are just a drop in the ocean, but the ocean would be less without that missing drop." --Mother Teresa

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« Reply To This #138 on: May 01, 2010, 11:21:44 AM »

It is though, a shame that the loan did not expire.

Oh, it expired all right, Jan. It says "Fully Funded" at the top because that's the way the coding has been done. There seems to be little accounting for expiry of loans in the way the site is set up, and this is one more example. But if you look at the Status box to the right of the borrower photo, you will see that the loan expired.
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Jan & John
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« Reply To This #139 on: May 01, 2010, 11:24:07 AM »

Oh, it expired all right, Jan. It says "Fully Funded" at the top because that's the way the coding has been done. There seems to be little accounting for expiry of loans in the way the site is set up, and this is one more example. But if you look at the Status box to the right of the borrower photo, you will see that the loan expired.
Oh good, thanks Alan.
Although I don't think Emprender will take that as the reason for the expiry, or will they?
Perhaps if they had enough emails...
-jan-
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"The place God calls you to is the place where your deepest gladness and the world's deepest hunger meet" - Fredrick Buechner (in Wishful Thinking).
"Every child should be well born, well fed, well taught, well housed and well treated."
Maude Riley, Alberta Council on Child and Family Welfare 1923
"Each of us feels that we are just a drop in the ocean, but the ocean would be less without that missing drop." --Mother Teresa

1 click per person per day on this link means 1 additional cent for the Fistula Foundation - thanks!
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