Cockfighting loan

[Guest]

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[fnord]

David,

You misunderstood my point: on principle I'd rather be counted as a foe of anyone who feels the need to classify others as friends or foes.

But it happens that I wouldn't support to a cockfighting loan, and would like to support a ban. As of now I just don't have good enough reasons to call for a ban, which is why I would like to read more. But as long as I lack the proper grounds, I am not supporting a ban on cockfighting loans. Sorry, but my dislike is far from enough to justify my calling for making my feelings a rule for others.

If you want to address the objections you listed, I think the best way to debunk a slippery slope fallacy is to show that the principles you follow when calling for a ban on cockfighting loans just don't apply outside of a narrow range of cases. For instance you could show how your opposition to bloodsports would not entail opposition to raising livestock for slaughter, assuming it doesn't. By the way, I'm not sure but I think that introducing an objection under the name of a fallacy is actually another fallacy; that isn't really making the section credible at all.

I think the cultural sensitivity issue is trickier. On this issue I think your reference to the guinea pigs loan weakens your position. To me the assumption that these animals are pets is evidence of cultural bias. I think different people would draw the line in different places when it comes to animal cruelty. I know people who campaign against milk because they believe dairy -- even on a small scale -- involves using animals as means and inflicting serious pain in the process. It's definitely not easy, but unless you can explain your reasoning, where you draw the line looks a lot like a gut call that can all too easily just reflect your community and background, hence the risk of cultural insensitivity.

I'm sure a lot of people would be more qualified than I am in discussing this, and I'm eager for more arguments. Knowing how quickly tempers can flare around here, I've probably already said too much.

fred

[YowieFreak]

An interesting slant to the loan to Raul (which appears not to have been a "cock-fighting" loan anyway, but rather a "develop another business so that cock-fighting wasn't required to survive" loan - but let's not quibble).

The wiki states(?) "Another cockfighting loan however appears to have expired because not enough lenders supported it within the thirty day time frame required for a loan to be funded.", which I guess is true - because that is now the way the loan "appears" - but the loan actually expired because of basket-hoarding.

If you want to make a list on the wiki of people supporting the concept of helping these people get away from needing to use cock-fighting as a means to live, you can add my name to the top of the list.  (And if you ever find out who blocked Raul's loan from being funded, you should probably add their name to the top of the list of Kivans who support cock-fighting!)

[Henry]

if I'm unable to choose a side because it's someone Else's culture....  then I would also have to say, it's OK for a homosexual to be executed in some countries around the world, it's OK to stone a woman to death for some stupid reason, etc, etc. 

So...  

I'm perfectly capable of saying that cockfighting loans are not acceptable behaviour in any culture, and should not be allowed on KIVA.org, that would be the list I belong on..... if I thought a list of names was needed.  And I'm glad I have the ability to voice my objection to it, cause I'm sure that might get me stoned in some country.

[Harvey:)]

The following is an article written by Elizabeth Jennings, executive director of Animal Protection of New Mexico (prior to the passage of the law making cockfighting illegal in New Mexico).

“Stop Animal Cruelty-“

“Those of us who live here know that New Mexico and New Mexicans are unique. ….. However, one aspect of New Mexico that makes most people shake their head in disbelief is our retention of a centuries-old practice called cockfighting. …..

The late Cesar Chavez said that compassion towards all living things is a mark of a civilized society. Conversely, cruelty, whether it is directed against human beings or against animals, is not the exclusive province of any one culture or community of people: "Racism, economic deprival, dogfighting and cockfighting, bullfighting…..are all cut from the same fabric: violence…"

Twenty years ago, caring New Mexicans fought a tough battle in the Legislature to ban dogfighting. At that time, New Mexico became a leader in the nation by making dogfighting a fourth-degree felony. Passing that law demonstrated that New Mexicans are passionate about protecting dogs from intentional harm. Interestingly, the same arguments about culture, freedom and economic benefit that are now used to defend cockfighting were used in 1981 to defend the now outlawed practice of dogfighting.
So why is cockfighting still legal, when it involves the same intentional harm to helpless animals, simply for fun and money?  …..

The fact is, a lot of people are troubled that cockfighting is not illegal in our state. A recent poll conducted by Research & Polling, Inc., of Albuquerque, revealed that 81% of New Mexicans support a ban on cockfighting. According to the poll, tremendous support for a ban cuts across all categories, including ethnicity, gender, geography and political affiliation. Of those surveyed:

• 84% of Anglos and 76% of Hispanics support a ban. …..

Some people claim that cockfighting is part of Hispanic culture and tradition. Why, then, do so many Hispanics support a ban? Senator Nancy Rodriguez this legislative session introduced and fought passionately for Senate Bill (SB) 276 to ban animal fighting. Senators Mary Jane Garcia, Carlos Cisneros, Roman Maes and Richard Martinez all enthusiastically supported that bill. None of them claims cockfighting as a part of his or her culture and heritage.

To hear cockfighting enthusiasts talk, nothing could be more wholesome than a good cockfight. ….. Those who have to live with cockfighting in their neighborhoods paint a much bleaker and more believable picture. Many are on record objecting to the cruelty to animals involved, the excessive traffic and noise, public intoxication, drinking and driving, illegal gambling, public urination and fighting among the spectators..  …..”

Full article at:
http://www.apnm.org/campaigns/cockfighting/tribune_editorial.html

Article written by Elizabeth Jennings, executive director of Animal Protection of New Mexico (prior to the passage of the law making cockfighting illegal in New Mexico).
_________________________________________________________________

Note: To those who wish to call me a liar or attack me in any other way, please note: This is an informational post (as is my next post). I am posting an article written by Elizabeth Jennings, executive director of Animal Protection of New Mexico (as noted above). Just as I did not write the article that I posted a couple of months ago, I did not write the above article. So, if anyone has a problem with the content of this article (or the article in my next post) or thinks the information contained in the articles is incorrect, then contact the appropriate people and discuss it with them, but please do not call me a liar.

[Harvey:)]

Excerpt from an article found on the In Defense of Animals website: http://www.idausa.org/campaigns/sport/cock/cockfighting.html

“Isn’t Cockfighting a Cultural Tradition?”

“While cockfighting may be a tradition in some cultures, not all traditions are good ones that deserve to continue. Cesar Chavez, who condemned the practice of cockfighting, once wrote: “Kindness and compassion toward all living things is a mark of a civilized society. Conversely, cruelty, whether it is directed against human beings or against animals, is not the exclusive province of any one culture or community of people.”

“In a statewide survey conducted in Arizona in 1997, 95% of Hispanic voters said they felt that cockfighting was “cruel and inhumane.” While only 34% of Anglo respondents disagreed that “cockfighting is an important part of Hispanic culture,” 70% of Hispanics disagreed with the statement.”

Full article here: http://www.idausa.org/campaigns/sport/cock/cockfighting.html

[A Nonny Mouse]

I for one would like to know precisely why it is necessary to post a list such as Henry showed us...I can think of no positive reason for it. 

I find it offensive, and rather threatening -- but then maybe that's just my inner Oliver Stone talking.

Nonny   

[Dottie b]

David, I don't see the necessity of listing the names at all. Instead of over-parsing the comments, how about just summarizing the points on each side and linking to the thread in general?

Dottie B

[alan]

... the loan actually expired because of basket-hoarding.

Exactly. There's a word for that: "vigilantism". Which I suggest is unacceptable behaviour. And to suggest that this loan expired because not enough people supported it is beyond misleading. FWIW, I had a brief window of opportunity in which I could have supported this loan, but while I considered doing so, the window closed. I have regretted missing that opportunity ever since, even if to do so would have been a quixotic gesture. I support lending to people who want to run legitimate businesses, such as taxi services, to improve their lot in life. That's why I joined Kiva in the first place.

And I agree that there is no good purpose in listing people's names with respect to whether it appears (or they explicitly state) that they "support" or oppose cockfighting or cockfighting loans. Making a list of people's names under the rubric of supporters of cockfighting comes too close to slander for my comfort level, especially if inclusion on the list involves a subjective interpretation of someone's statement. I suggest the list should be removed. Beyond that, let people speak for themselves.

[RichardF]

Over two weekends or so I prepared a wiki addressed at this question:

http://kaclwiki.org/kacl

The wiki seeks to be objective in presenting both sides of this issue.

Hi David.  If you want to link people with arguments, I would suggest a different approach, more along the lines of what a reporter or policy analyst might do.  For example, you could rework two sections and modify the style by presenting particular arguments and then illustrating them with specific, attributed quotes.

9	Debate and Arguments
	9.1 On what forum has there been debate on this issue, and what is a summary of the current debate? Who has been active in the discussion? The forum where the main debate has occurred has been Kiva Friends.  Examples of arguments for or against cockfighting loans made by participants in the discussions are included in the following sections.
	9.2 What are arguments against allowing cockfighting loans?
	9.3 What are arguments for allowing cockfighting loans?

[dkf]

I for one would like to know precisely why it is necessary to post a list such as Henry showed us...I can think of no positive reason for it. 

I find it offensive, and rather threatening -- but then maybe that's just my inner Oliver Stone talking.

Nonny  

David, I don't see the necessity of listing the names at all. Instead of over-parsing the comments, how about just summarizing the points on each side and linking to the thread in general?

Dottie B

Hi David.  If you want to link people with arguments, I would suggest a different approach, more along the lines of what a reporter or policy analyst might do.  For example, you could rework two sections and modify the style by presenting particular arguments and then illustrating them with specific, attributed quotes.

9	Debate and Arguments
	9.1 On what forum has there been debate on this issue, and what is a summary of the current debate? Who has been active in the discussion? The forum where the main debate has occurred has been Kiva Friends.  Examples of arguments for or against cockfighting loans made by participants in the discussions are included in the following sections.
	9.2 What are arguments against allowing cockfighting loans?
	9.3 What are arguments for allowing cockfighting loans?

I think these are reasonable suggestions.

For now the usernames have been removed so there are just links to the posts. This way people who were unaware of the discussion, can get a sense of what people have said with respect to one point or another.

If you want to address the objections you listed, I think the best way to debunk a slippery slope fallacy is to show that the principles you follow when calling for a ban on cockfighting loans just don't apply outside of a narrow range of cases. For instance you could show how your opposition to bloodsports would not entail opposition to raising livestock for slaughter, assuming it doesn't. By the way, I'm not sure but I think that introducing an objection under the name of a fallacy is actually another fallacy; that isn't really making the section credible at all.

Perhaps I got into higher level reasons against cockfighting in the religion part of the wiki page . However, it is also worth considering that it is illegal in many culturally disparate countries throughout the world. There seems to be fairly strong international consensus on the issue.

I think the cultural sensitivity issue is trickier. On this issue I think your reference to the guinea pigs loan weakens your position. To me the assumption that these animals are pets is evidence of cultural bias. I think different people would draw the line in different places when it comes to animal cruelty. I know people who campaign against milk because they believe dairy -- even on a small scale -- involves using animals as means and inflicting serious pain in the process. It's definitely not easy, but unless you can explain your reasoning, where you draw the line looks a lot like a gut call that can all too easily just reflect your community and background, hence the risk of cultural insensitivity.

I'm sure a lot of people would be more qualified than I am in discussing this, and I'm eager for more arguments. Knowing how quickly tempers can flare around here, I've probably already said too much.

Maybe the guinea pig issue was perhaps more of a misunderstanding.  I know of no place in the world where eating guinea pigs is considered illegal. It seems that if the guinea pig is slaughtered in a humane way then there isn't any question of animal cruelty.

Although the name of the page is "Kivans Against Cockfighting Loans Wiki" it isn't just advocating one point of view or the other. I didn't intend it to just include my point of view. The goal is to present information objectively, to be a repository of facts and information, and to present different points of view or arguments. 

If I get time I'll try to work more on this, but the best time to work on it is probably Sunday.

David