Cockfighting loan

[Guest]

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[Alaska Pack]

And another cockfight, this time deadly, almost in Kiva's own backyard:

In California, cockfighting is punished as a misdemeanor for the first offense and as a felony for subsequent violations.“The two deaths in Merced County are only the most recent in a series of killings that have happened at cockfights in California in recent years,” said Eric Sakach, senior law enforcement specialist for the Humane Society. “It is time to make cockfighting a felony on the first offense so we can deter cockfighters from staging these events. The only way to stop cockfighting, and the carnage that goes hand-in-hand with it, is to provide penalties that are greater than the potential gambling winnings. Strong penalties have proven to be an effective deterrent for cockfighting in other states.”


Full article here: http://www.turlockjournal.com/news/article/5026/

Thank you for posting Judy.  One thing to add to this article from my experience is that there are countless other victims.  When I was in high school on the island of Kauai, the man across the road raised fighting chickens.  His house and yard were a mess, at least a dozen junk cars in the yard with often a rooster tied to it, a shabby house in disrepair.  The family, unfortunately with children were dressed often in clothes worse than that of the entrepreneurs on Kiva.  Arguments would erupt frequently and despite the occasional police call, nothing changed, I am not sure that the children finished school.

   Bernice

[David2051]

And another cockfight, this time deadly, almost in Kiva's own backyard:

Article from the Turlock Journal, August 3, 2010:

Full article here: http://www.turlockjournal.com/news/article/5026/

This is so sad.  It seems like a whole different world from the one I inhabit...  I just can't even fathom what people are thinking.

[Harvey:)]

Article from the website, Helping Animals: http://www.helpinganimals.com/oi_cockfighting.asp

Give Roosters Something to Crow About: End Cockfighting

Forced to Fight or Die

In their natural environments, birds fight over mates, food, or territory and to establish their dominance or position in a flock's pecking order. According to Paul Siegel, a Virginia Tech expert in fowl genetics and behavior, birds rarely fight to the death because the weaker bird generally flees. "If there's a way to escape," Siegel said, "they'll just get the heck out." In cockfights, Siegel says, roosters continue fighting because they cannot escape.

There is nothing natural about the manner in which birds who are destined for the ring live or die. "Battle stags" (roosters under the age of 2) and "battle cocks" (roosters 2 years of age and older) are born, raised, and trained to fight on properties known as "game farms." Breeders (also called "cockers") kill the birds they deem inferior so that their flocks will have genetic lines filled with birds who are "game"—i.e., willing to fight.

Many of these birds spend most of their lives tethered by one leg near whatever object is intended to serve as their shelter, such as an overturned plastic barrel or a small wire cage placed directly on the ground. When they're not chained or in the ring, the birds are conditioned to fight through a combination of physical work, including being forced to walk with weights attached to their legs, and "practice fights" with other roosters.

Before they are thrown into the ring, many birds have their feathers plucked, and their waddles and/or combs (the flesh at the top of their heads and under their beaks) are hacked off, usually with shears. These mutilations are performed as an offensive measure—in other words, so other roosters don't do it in the fighting ring. Because roosters do not have sweat glands, the loss of these body parts deprives them of the ability to cool themselves. Some cockers cut off the birds' spurs, which are the natural bony protrusions on the legs that serve as roosters' natural weapons, so that more deadly, artificial weapons can be strapped to their legs.

What Happens at Cockfights

Many cockfights are held in round or square enclosures known as "cockpits," or simply, "pits." Once birds have been paired according to their weights and weapons, their owners and spectators place bets on which bird will win each fight.

A bell, a whistle, or a referee's signal marks the start of the fight. At that time, the handlers "pit" the birds, placing them on the pit's floor to fight. According to one eyewitness, "With neck feathers fanned and wings whirring, the birds jump and parry at each other. They kick and duel in mid-air, striking at each other with feet and beak." Blood stains the pit's floor. If the fighting wanes, handlers pick the birds up and blow on their backs, yank at their beaks, or hold them beak-to-beak in an attempt to "reignite the frenzy." The birds are then re-pitted. According to one official, one rooster must be killed or nearly killed for the fight to end, because the alternative is to "have one of the cockers pick up his rooster and give up the fight, but nobody wants to do that 'cause then you're saying, 'Hey, I'm a loser, I don't train good birds.' They would rather have them die in the pit than pick them up."

"Losing" birds often end up discarded in a barrel or trash can near the game pit. One visitor to a cockfight found a trash can where "two fighters had been discarded. The rooster on the bottom was dead. The one on top of him had a huge chest wound. He was still alive, but barely." Even birds who "win" cockfights are frequently disfigured.

Roosters who are rescued from game farms or cockfights are typically euthanized because, as one official explained, "[T]he only thing they've been trained to do is fight other roosters ... euthanasia means a humane death—it's not the barbaric, brutal activity inside the pit that they're being raised for."

Cruelty Is Just the Tip of the Criminal Iceberg

Cockfighting usually involves other crimes in addition to cruelty to animals. Gambling—which is often illegal and involves large sums of money—is found at many cockfights, as are firearms and other weapons that are sometimes used in violent, interpersonal crimes, including murder, as seen in a triple homicide that occurred at a Northern California cockfight.

Illegal drugs are also commonly found at cockfights, and criminal investigators have happened upon roosters and fighting pits while searching for other illicit materials. In one instance, officers raiding a California marijuana farm allegedly found more than 150 roosters and cockfighting paraphernalia "amid the 4,000 pot plants they expected to find ...."

Young children are often present at cockfights; exposure to such violence can promote insensitivity to animal suffering and an enthusiasm for bloodsports. ……….

Full article here: http://www.helpinganimals.com/oi_cockfighting.asp
_______________________________________________________________

Note: To those who wish to call me a liar or attack me in any other way, go
ahead, but please note: This is an informational post. I am posting an article from the website Helping Animals (as noted above). Just as I did not write the article that I posted a couple of months ago, I did not write the above article. So, if anyone has a problem with the content of the article or thinks the information contained in the article is incorrect, then contact the appropriate people and discuss it with them, but please do not call me a liar.

[dkf]

I think what could be interesting to consider is what other MFI platforms view is on questions of the appropriateness of certain loans.

For example,

MYC4
Microplace
Babyloan
Wokai

Energy In Common   -- Loans for energy purposes.
Education Generation -- Loans for education

I'm not going to be researching that now, because I am up in Vermont celebrating a wedding. However, I should have time for it later.

Some people who objected to Kiva's view have now taken their loans to other platforms like Energy In Common.

David

[Alaska Pack]

After receiving a message and link from another team, I find it hard to get interested in another loan, even a new MFI from South Africa was not compelling enough.

It seems that loans associated with cock-fighting are still being posted.  Sometimes one can extrapolate from a photo but this loan is not just one that supports the fighting but produces the weapons to make the fighting more bloody.

http://www.kiva.org/lend/239548
Edpyme Alternativa: Initially, I liked this MFI because of the services they provided.




For the last ten years, Edwin has created spurs which he sells to owners of roosters that participate in cock-fighting. Edwin travels the zone visiting various centers and owners, selling his wares. The spurs are created by combining a special stone with metal and leather in order to attach them to the rooster’s feet.

This loan bothers me more than all the others.  Would Kiva post loans that produces handcuffs or torture devices?
Earlier in the year, I thought that there were posts that indicated that Kiva might be reviewing the matter.  I hope that it will not be forgotten like the Michael Vicks case where he got off with a slap on the hand and now back in the limelight while the animal victims are still suffering.

http://blogs.dogtime.com/editors-notepad/2010/11/michael-vick-call-it-a-comeback-but-don-t-dare-say-redemption

Excerpt:

Plaschke tells the story of Mel, a former Vick dog now living in Dallas with Richard and Sunny Hunter. Though he's received the utmost in compassion and care since his rescue from Vick's compound, Mel is still so emotionally ravaged from his days as a bait dog, he convulses with fear each time a stranger enters the house.

 

The dog's scars remain so raw -- and so heartbreaking -- that Hunter can't bring himself to watch football. While a stadium crowd cheers for Vick, a frightened Pit Bull tries to become invisible in a corner of the house. Though it's been years since Vick has touched him, he hides his head and lies motionless, soundless. As Plaschke writes, the bark was literally beaten out of him.

Bernice 

[Harvey:)]

After receiving a message and link from another team, I find it hard to get interested in another loan, even a new MFI from South Africa was not compelling enough.

It seems that loans associated with cock-fighting are still being posted.  Sometimes one can extrapolate from a photo but this loan is not just one that supports the fighting but produces the weapons to make the fighting more bloody.

http://www.kiva.org/lend/239548
Edpyme Alternativa: Initially, I liked this MFI because of the services they provided.




For the last ten years, Edwin has created spurs which he sells to owners of roosters that participate in cock-fighting. Edwin travels the zone visiting various centers and owners, selling his wares. The spurs are created by combining a special stone with metal and leather in order to attach them to the rooster’s feet.

This loan bothers me more than all the others.  Would Kiva post loans that produces handcuffs or torture devices?
Earlier in the year, I thought that there were posts that indicated that Kiva might be reviewing the matter.  I hope that it will not be forgotten like the Michael Vicks case where he got off with a slap on the hand and now back in the limelight while the animal victims are still suffering.

http://blogs.dogtime.com/editors-notepad/2010/11/michael-vick-call-it-a-comeback-but-don-t-dare-say-redemption

Excerpt:

Plaschke tells the story of Mel, a former Vick dog now living in Dallas with Richard and Sunny Hunter. Though he's received the utmost in compassion and care since his rescue from Vick's compound, Mel is still so emotionally ravaged from his days as a bait dog, he convulses with fear each time a stranger enters the house.

 

The dog's scars remain so raw -- and so heartbreaking -- that Hunter can't bring himself to watch football. While a stadium crowd cheers for Vick, a frightened Pit Bull tries to become invisible in a corner of the house. Though it's been years since Vick has touched him, he hides his head and lies motionless, soundless. As Plaschke writes, the bark was literally beaten out of him.

Bernice 

Thanks for informing us about this loan, Bernice, and thanks for helping to make everyone aware that these loans to people involved in bloodsports are being posted by Kiva and marketed under various titles and categories.

Perhaps some day Kiva will become more enlightened about the violence these loans perpetrate in the communities in which they are located and perhaps then Kiva will finally develop a moral and ethical fabric and stop supporting and promoting these cruel and reprehensible loans.

In the meantime, I am happy to say, I have almost all of my funds out of Kiva. Those withdrawn funds are now supporting humane projects, businesses, education and activities with humane minded organizations and MFIs.

[Jan & John]

http://www.kiva.org/lend/239548
Edpyme Alternativa: Initially, I liked this MFI because of the services they provided.

...For the last ten years, Edwin has created spurs which he sells to owners of roosters that participate in cock-fighting. Edwin travels the zone visiting various centers and owners, selling his wares. The spurs are created by combining a special stone with metal and leather in order to attach them to the rooster’s feet.

This loan bothers me more than all the others.  Would Kiva post loans that produces handcuffs or torture devices?
Earlier in the year, I thought that there were posts that indicated that Kiva might be reviewing the matter.  I hope that it will not be forgotten like the Michael Vicks case where he got off with a slap on the hand and now back in the limelight while the animal victims are still suffering.

Kiva needs to come up with some way of dealing with this and quickly. 
Edpyme Alternativa on the partner page has no website and no contact email.

I found http://www.alternativa.com.pe/
and contacts...

      José Gonzáles
      Gerente General
      jgonzales@alternativa.com.pe
      (517) 420-4808
   
      Luis Enrique Sampén
      Jefe de Sistemas
      lsampen@alternativa.com.pe
      (517) 420-4808

I hope they have someone there who can read my English!
-jan-

[Jan & John]

The official answer received from Kiva.

Hi Jan and John,

We appreciate you writing in, and we've been notified by other lenders of this loan recently being posted to the site. Kiva's policy around what loans we allow our Field Partners to post remains the same.

We trust our Field Partners to determine whether or not a loan request is appropriate, and we only prohibit loans for business activities that are illegal in the country of origin or loans that, though legal, violate major UN conventions.

We trust our Field Partners to make these decisions because they are familiar with the communities and cultures where our borrowers live and work. Whereas, a loan might seem offensive to one person, it may be perfectly reasonable in another cultural context.

We know that some lenders don't wish to fund particular loans on the Kiva website, so we recommend that lenders exercise their consumer choice in selecting loans that are in line with their values and preferences.

Best wishes,
Ali Carroll
Customer Service Manager

Kiva.org
Loans That Change Lives

I guess then the only ray of sunshine to offer here is the fact that the loan clearly states the reason for the loan... it could easily have been buried in the description, blacksmiths make all sorts of things, and he would have been funded just as quickly.

-jan-

[David2051]

Yeah, I didn't see this loan raising, but I'm glad that I haven't seen any CF loans for a long time and that this one was very upfront about it.

[dkf]

found http://www.alternativa.com.pe/
and contacts...

      José Gonzáles
      Gerente General
      jgonzales@alternativa.com.pe
      (517) 420-4808
  
      Luis Enrique Sampén
      Jefe de Sistemas
      lsampen@alternativa.com.pe
      (517) 420-4808

Jan,

Thanks very much for posting the information. I wrote to Edpyme Alternativa
and let them know that FINCA Peru refunded the loan to William:

http://www.kiva.org/lend/106842

I hope they have someone there who can read my English!
-jan-

I found a site called http://www.speaklike.com which does human translation for a
pretty good price.

Between English and Spanish costs $0.06 a word.

It ended up costing me $20 but that's because my message went slightly over
208 words (with the 250 credit promo and 1,000 credits for $10 -- one could
get a human translated message of 208 words or less which costs 6*208 = 1,248 credits
so the translation only costs $10)

So in general you can get 166 words for $10 with 4 credits left over.

Of course you can do machine translation with http://translate.google.com but the quality
isn't as good.

Using Google translate I tried doing the translation from English to Spanish and
then back from English to Spanish and saw how good the English was.  

But at any rate -- that doesn't really accurately measure the quality of the Spanish
translation.

Using SpeakLike the translation also went pretty quickly -- (I think about ten to twenty
minutes to do my message).

Anyway, here's the Spanish translation and the corresponding English:

Edpyme Alternativa,

Por favor comprenda que escribo teniendo presentes los valores de la
microfinanza, y los valores de Edpyme Alternativa como se
menciona en el sitio web:

Honestidad

Cooperación

Lealtad

Respeto

Servicio

Creo que las microfinanzas tienen el potencial de sacar a la gente de
la pobreza.

Estoy preocupado sobre este préstamo a Edwin Quispe Suarez.

http://www.kiva.org/lend/239548

No soy un experto en Perú. Sin embargo, en los Estados Unidos hemos
visto que las peleas de gallos conducen al alcoholismo, abuso de drogas y crimen. Esto
perjudica la economía local y provoca un desarrollo más lento. Esto no sigue las metas más
grandes del microfinanciamiento.

El gobierno de Estados Unidos ha prohibido las riñas de gallos.

Sé que es legal en Perú pero te urjo que investigues a FINCA Perú con
el siguiente préstamo:

http://www.kiva.org/lend/106842  (ver "Las entradas en el diario de William")

"Journal entries for William"

Este fue reintegrado por la siguiente razón:

"Comprendemos y estamos sensibilizados con algunas de las opiniones y críticas
 de la comunidad Kiva con respecto al uso de este préstamo, por lo que hemos
 decidido pedir a Kiva que lo reembolse, aunque ya ha sido pagado
parcialmente en el sitio web."

"We understand and are sensitive to some of the Kiva community's
opinions and criticisms regarding the use of this loan, which
is why we have decided to ask Kiva to refund it, even though
it has already been partially funded on the website."

David Friedman

 .... Hay más información acerca de esto en los sitios web siguientes
(que están en inglés):

http://www.kivafriends.org/index.php?topic=3447.new;topicseen#new
http://www.kivafriends.org/index.php/topic,1025.310.html (a partir de
la página 32)
http://kaclwiki.org/

Edpyme Alternativa,  

Please understand that I write seeking to keep in mind the values of microfinance, and the values of Edpyme Alternative as stated on the web site:  

Honesty
Cooperation
Loyalty  
Respect  
Service  

I think microfinance has the potential to lift people out of poverty.  
I am concerned about this loan to Edwin Quispe Suarez.  

http://www.kiva.org/lend/239548  

I am not an expert on Peru. However, in the United States we have found that Cockfighting leads to alcoholism, drug abuse, and crime. These hurt the local  economy, and slow growth. It does not follow the larger goals of microfinance.  

The government in the U.S. has banned cockfighting.  

I realize that it is legal in Peru but I would urge you to follow the lead  of FINCA Peru with the following loan:  

http://www.kiva.org/lend/106842  

(see "Journal entries for William")  

This was refunded for the following reason:  

"We understand and are sensitive to some of the Kiva community's opinions and criticisms regarding the use of this loan, which  is why we have decided to ask Kiva to refund it, even though  it has already been partially funded on the website."    

David Friedman  

.... There is more information on this at the following web sites
(these are in English):

http://www.kivafriends.org/index.php?topic=3447.new;topicseen#new http://www.kivafriends.org/index.php/topic,1025.310.html (beginning on page 32)
http://kaclwiki.org/

I forgot to put in there another way to look at this:

It's short-term benefit for what may later be long-term loss
in terms of crime, economic turbulence, etc.

David