Basket-Hoarders. Please Re-Consider the Impact You May Be Having On Others.

[Guest]

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[Mona]

Let me start my answer with a little side-topic. Even if there would have been no basket hoarding of the loan to Maritza, not all of if would have been free and open for everyone to enter. If you take a look on the loan amount and count the number of lenders you will see that one of them did not loan 25 but 50. Though I am sure he did this only because he loved this loan so much that he just wanted to help more, he took away in fact for one more lender the chance to be part of this loan. And I am absolutely sure that this has not been one of our kf or kf basket hoarders on this loan. So together with Purex, people lending more than 25 and other reason it will never be a "totally fair" competition on every loan.

But I would feel absolutely comfortable if we set some rules for this like

• never take all of a loan and
• don't keep it too long.

The only exceptions I would like to make from this is loans that are not special because of the loan itself but of its circumstances. These exceptions are for me loans like our celebrating of loan no. 50,000, 75,000 and 100,000 or the loans where we try to break the record of the number of kf on one loan, because I am absolutely sure that one has to be a kivafriend to know why these loans are special. And therefore (apart from the fact that this means something like 10 loans out of 100,000) no non-kf will be sad if he misses the chance to get on these loans.

[AccountAbility]

...If you take a look on the loan amount and count the number of lenders you will see that one of them did not loan 25 but 50. Though I am sure he did this only because he loved this loan so much that he just wanted to help more, he took away in fact for one more lender the chance to be part of this loan. And I am absolutely sure that this has not been one of our kf or kf basket hoarders on this loan. So together with Purex, people lending more than 25 and other reason it will never be a "totally fair" competition on every loan.

Mona - On this point I guess I would have to disagree.  I think the issue is letting the loans stay in the "open market".  (My concern about PUREX is largely if they are getting their loans other than on the open market of the website.)

Kiva's suggestion of a $25 "investment is for diversification of risk as much as anything.  Personally, we never loan just $25 in part because we have enough diversification and in part because we don't want so many borrowers that we lose track of the connection to them as individual real live people and start viewing them as just some pictures in a portfolio.

Dan

[Kay]

Personally, I think life is too short . . . 

I say, live and let live!

[michael]

I think I will go make a loan to a man with a cow as penance for sometimes handing over a really great loan. 


Colette

Hey, now.... COW LOANS RULE!   

[Gerard]

As for your question about the Purex deal Diane, yes, it does bother me a bit that they have exclusive access to some loans, though I must say other things about the precedent of the partnership bother me more. 

For the sake of clarity, the Purex people didn't get access to any loans before they hit the live site. We don't have any ability to do that and there's a real aversion in this organization to setting up a "walled garden" for any partners. Purex just funded all of the loans, or as much of the loans as they could, as soon as they hit Kiva.

[Marilee]

Thanks for clarifying that, Gerard.  That was my guess.

When I first saw the "walled garden" comment on the Purex thread, I thought "... unlike basket hoarding?" and moved on.  I mean, Purex is at least increasing exposure and maybe bringing in new lenders, while loan swapping within KF is preaching to the choir.

Thanks for braving the topic even when you'd gotten a bad reaction before, Jill.

[tomviolence]

hi

I have never "hoarded" a loan, or even know how to basket share. But in looking at some of the comments, I felt compled to write a note.

Purex funded all that was available. In one shot. As someone pointed out, there was a loan where some individual had also funded $25.00 of it. It does not appear that they were given specail rights, or special access to loans. They chose one, chose their funding, and commited.

If I felt like funding, let's say, all of a $125.00 loan, I would not feel bad about no one else sharing that. My "portfolio" is diverse enough to handle $125.00 in one borrower's hands.

The idea that someone was "greedy" and put $50.00 instead of the recommended $25.00 on a loan is stupid. Yes, stupid. No one here has had more credits than loans ? My ave loan is $26.98.

The idea that someone sees a loan, chooses the full amout to take it out of circulation, then releases small amounts so friends can quickly fund that portion, that is "greedy", and while not "illegal" is certainly not in the interest of fair play.
I see no problem in email, calling, text messaging someone about a great loan, as long as it remains in public view. I think the rule should be, if you take it out of circulation, you should have the funds to fund it, and commit to it. Otherwise, why take it out ? - unless your plan is prevent other lenders form access which is certainly unfair.

[Diane R]

Purex just funded all of the loans, or as much of the loans as they could, as soon as they hit Kiva.

Purex did not "just fund" the loans; they are "reselling" parts of all their loans through a laundry soap promotion.  This is much more distasteful to me than a committed and caring Kiva lender selecting as much as they could of, say, loan #50000 as soon as they saw it, so they can release the loan to others out of a desire to share that meaningful loan with other friends.

Purex is at least increasing exposure and maybe bringing in new lenders. . .

Purex is selling laundry soap and looking for some feel-good PR.  It's great that Kiva reaps some benefits from it, but if the Kiva borrowers featured by Purex don't help them sell laundry soap, this won't be a long-lived promotion.
 

Live and let live.  Good advice, Kay.

--Diane.

[karlynwagner]

Dear Kiva Friends,

I wish to be heard on the subject under current debate, basket sharing.

I was the person who first saw the loan to Maritza last night.  When I saw it, it made me think of another loan some time back that there had been quite a bit of controversy over.  So I put the whole loan in my basket.  I did this because I had also seen quite early the recent cock fighting loan and could have put it all in my basket but did not.  The next day some one stated that they wished some one had grabbed it so others did not loan to it not knowing what the real enterprise was.  So I did put the whole Maritza loan in my basket and then attempted to sort out the issue.  I posted the loan picture on KIVAFriends and asked if this loan reminded anyone of a prior loan over which much discussion had taken place.  I then went to Chat and sat for a while.  In not so long a time a couple of Friends entered the Chat room and we discussed the Maritza loan and the prior loan that they seemed to remember but we could not find after looking a number of ways.  After more discussion we decided that the Maritza loan was what it stated and that it was really okay for loaning.  I deleted my posting.  Those in the Chat room asked for shares and I gave them shares.  I minded the loan a little longer and a couple more came into Chat and I shared with them.  Eventually the loan was dropped out of my basket and another KIVAFriend picked it up for a while and then it was put back into general circulation.  The loan has 70% KIVAFriends and 30% general loaners only 13 loaner total.  And, I am not sure if all the KIVAFriends on the loan were from drops in the Chat room. 

I am a mother and a grandmother.  One thing I always told the children was that LIFE IS NOT FAIR!  Life is wonderful, interesting, sad, glorious, disappointing and many other adjectives, but not fair.  So get over it.  Mom’s advice.   The process of acquiring KIVA loans is not fair.  I miss all the loans that come up in the middle of the night.  Europe loaners miss the loans that come up mid-day in the US.  I miss loans when I am out of credits or out of money allotted for KIVA for the month.  I miss loans that are being held by folks on KIVA and not shared by KIVAFriends.  I don’t have access to Purex loans.  There are many loans I don’t have access to during a day or month.  I don’t have equal access to all loans.  That is a given.  The only way I can think of for completely fair access to loans would be for all loans to be released at the same time each day and every loan checked out before another was put in the basket.  Does anyone want that system?  I  think not.

We live in a society where group efforts surround us and where different preferences can get you different objects.  I have to carry numerous plastic cards I hate to get discounts at the grocery store, drug store and hardware store.  Why not give every shopper the same price?  Because merchants “reward” frequent shoppers with better prices.  Fair?  NOT!  If I want good season symphony tickets, I have to buy whatever tickets they give me and then each year my seats are improved.  But if I make a substantial donation I move up quicker.  Fair?  NOT!  If I want Lakers playoff tickets I have to buy them through someone who bought a bunch and pay a higher price.  Fair?  NOT.  If I want special concert tickets I have to go stand in line, or sleep in line or have a Gold American Express card (who bought a group of tickets) to get a ticket.  Fair? NOT!

I was loaning KIVA loan for many months and began to see a pattern of new loans all being taken immediately and some of the same people on the loans.  I wondered how this could be.  I emailed a loaner who was on many of my loans and he kindly told me how KIVAFriends worked and how basket sharing works.  I watched for a while and then tried it. And it worked wonderfully.  And in the process, I have made friends around the world and enjoy the times we spend in chat.  I also enjoy getting on special loans and sharing special loans marking special occasions.  I enjoy learning about why each person likes certain loans.  And I enjoy helping them find them. 

It has been my experience that most loans that are in baskets and shared are only a few pieces of the loans.  There are usually more non-basket shared loaners on the loans than basket sharers.  The exception is when a loan is selected to mark an occasion.  Then the loan that is selected usually isn’t a “hot ticket” item such as a new country or special category loan.  And when these are chosen there have been lots of loans up for all loaners.

I am troubled by what seems to be an environment of contentiousness on KIVAFiends.  It seems that on the postings there is always an issue that is polarizing.  And if there isn’t one then or the last one is petering out some new issue is brought up, or more often an old one is brought up again.  And on it goes. 

It seems t me if you don’t like something then don’t participate in it but don’t ruin it for those who happen to enjoy it.  I, personally, have a huge issue with pharmacy loans and could post a paper on why these loans are not beneficial to local residents or the world wide community.  But I have refrained.  And have merely state that I do not loan to pharmacies (usually).  When private messaged about the issue I do discuss it.  I don’t like Purex using KIVA to sell a product.  But that seems to be a done deal.  I think picking the battles and keeping them few is more effective if change is desired. 

I am sad that there has been so much unhappiness expressed as a result of my relationship with the Maritza loan.  And I am sorry that I have made any of you angry.  I don’t know yet what I will do regarding loan sharing.  For a while I think I will fade into the background.   

[Jane Sladen]

For a while I think I will fade into the background.   

Please don't!

Jane Sladen.