Basket-Hoarders. Please Re-Consider the Impact You May Be Having On Others.

[Guest]

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[Diane R]

Karen, I'm sure I am not the only KF who would find it a sad thing if you were to fade into the background.  Thank you for your post and for explaining your view of "the other side" of this issue, which probably shouldn't really be this much of an issue anyway.  Your points are correct: none of us has full and complete access to any loans offered by Kiva, and almost no loans in the overall universe of Kiva loans (probably fewer than a dozen) are nearly-completely funded by KFs (and I believe there are zero loans that are fully funded by KFs, excepting those for which one KF is the sole lender).

I'm sure no one meant to make you feel uncomfortable about your involvement in the loan to Maritza, but I'm also sure that your post will be helpful in putting the issue into context.


--Diane.

[cpbailey]

Hey, there is a NEW TEAM!!!!  It is for those who wish to give Penance for any participation in Basket sharing, Basket Hoarding or just being a basket case.  You can loan to a really old loan, a really boring loan, a really long term loan, a country with LOTS of available loans or a man with a cow from country with mostly men with cows.

This will free up those popular loans for someone who cares...

http://www.kiva.org/community/viewTeam?team_id=7049

Colette

[wthepoo]

If I felt like funding, let's say, all of a $125.00 loan, I would not feel bad about no one else sharing that.

And why not? If it's a special loan, attractive and sought after by many lenders, the exactly same arguments Jill made hold true here. For this reason, Kiva, at one time (as far as I know - I wasn't here, back then), had a policy in place preventing lending more than $25 to one borrower.

Ergo: You should feel just as bad about that (if it is such a special etc. loan) as you try to make (reasonable) basket-sharers feel in the following.

The idea that someone was "greedy" and put $50.00 instead of the recommended $25.00 on a loan is stupid. Yes, stupid.

Whoa... I don't think calling a (well-reasoned) opinion "stupid" (twice, even) helps discussion. Especially when you twist and distort the statement first to make it look stupid and ridiculous (Mona didn't use or even imply the word "greedy").

The idea that someone sees a loan, chooses the full amout to take it out of circulation, then releases small amounts so friends can quickly fund that portion, that is "greedy", and while not "illegal" is certainly not in the interest of fair play.

It's certainly not "greedy" nor is it "illegal" - I grant you that "fair play" is up for discussion as with any of the (common) practices of reserving a seat in a cinema or theatre for a friend (or as German I have to add: a deckchair next to the pool with a towel), a place in the queue, or similar things (who never did any of that, may cast the first stone, but I think I am relatively save in my glasshouse there). Obviously, those left out hardly regard that as "fair" - and for a reason, I grant you; and yet, (a) it's part of the pleasure to share certain experiences (as has been pointed out before), (b) it often does no or little harm, (c) can be done the other way round, too, (d) it's basically the host's/site's/theatre's/hotel's (or: Kiva's) job to set out the rules of what is acceptable and what is not.

From my experience with several new lenders, they don't look for the special loans (that's my main argument contra Jill's very thoughtful and thought-provoking post), they are basically compelled by so many of the loans that my guess is that (virtually) no lender was turned off of Kiva by a particular loan being (perhaps inexplicably) unavailable - even more so, as now "fully funded" loans are clearly marked as such immediately and usually disappear from the list of fundraising loans rather soon so that there often won't even be "high hopes".

Furthermore, as was set out before, it affects a very small number of loans, sometimes not even very popular ones (and I agree that the problem gets bigger with "new countries", though these are not necessarily what the "new lenders" that Jill addressed are looking for), and in most cases only a part of the loan and for a relatively modest time-span (this varies, though, I agree) - the rules that Mona's mentioned form a good "code of conduct", that's basically in place already. As is Kerry's old proposal that, too, (Kerry, I beg to differ) wasn't ignored but is rather common practice (PMing, mailing, contacting potentially interested parties and/or posting it on KF and/or the Team Tisket board).

I don't take part in most shared loans (though I have participated in a fair share in a holding as well as receiving role), I believe, because I also like to find my own loans or help the "less popular" businesses, but I did not, do not and will not feel exceedingly guilty on those occasions I have/am/will.

Best wishes,
Wolfgang.

PS:

For a while I think I will fade into the background.   

By all means, Karen, don't.


((Edited for self-moderation.))

[tomviolence]

My goal is not to make people quit, and I appoligize if I was too hard. But I really stand by the argument

Quote from: Mona on Today at 12:01:16 PM
...If you take a look on the loan amount and count the number of lenders you will see that one of them did not loan 25 but 50. Though I am sure he did this only because he loved this loan so much that he just wanted to help more, he took away in fact for one more lender the chance to be part of this loan. And I am absolutely sure that this has not been one of our kf or kf basket hoarders on this loan. So together with Purex, people lending more than 25 and other reason it will never be a "totally fair" competition on every loan. "

Where is it suggested that those who take $50 are unfair, when the discussion is about those who take an entire loan out of circulation.

Using that logic, any one who loans $25.00 to any loan is taking away the loan for another user. The only way to be "fair" would be not loan at all.

And yes, life is not fair, so fairness is not a quality to stive for - anyone for cockfighting ? QED

There is a big difference between taking and funding a loan, and holding a loan unfunded - with the specific purpose of preventing other "non-buddies" from accessing the loan and funding it to completion.

I belive there is an RSS feed, so people can be alerted to loans of a type. It is wonderful people are excited about loaning, and people want to loan to certain groups (As a member of FSM there has been a lot of chatter regarding a loan for a seller of pasta, all through team messages).

I will famously say -"this is my last message on this" - I guess I was just astonished at the idea of hoarding - did not mean to be so mean, just astonished ....

[Alaska Pack]

On the first few months on Kiva, we never checked out more than 1 loan at a time and never clicked the loan button until we were absolutely sure about funding it.  In the process, in looking at another loan, poof a loan would disappear even if it had $500 left on it.  It must have been a basket share.  Did we give up on Kiva?  Since I am posting this today, no, we funded another loan.

Back then, even without the help of Kivafriends or basket-sharing, it did not take long to figure out that there was a difference between "raised" and "make a loan".  If it was a great loan,  simply sitting and waiting, a $25 portion would show up and it was in our basket.  Not knowing it was a basket drop, but it was accessible to us.

Sometimes we  would get in, sometimes not, (Que sera sera), there were other loans to fund.  Some of our "second" choices our now our favorites!

What we do worry about more than this is the transparency of Kiva.  Second, the companies that want a partnership with Kiva to improve their public image which may be to Kiva's expense.  In general, Kiva is a great organization otherwise we would not be here.  There is not a shortage of worthy non-profit organizations.

I think that there have been many a good point for and against sharing loans.   I think that funding more than $25 is not much different than "hoarding" like Wolfgang pointed out.  Do I care if someone chooses to fund the whole loan?  Absolutely not, the entrepreneur gets funded and if it makes the lender happy, so be it.  There are other loans to fund.  I  like  Mona's suggestion, Howard has excellent points and I LOVE Kay's attitude.

Karen you are a wonderful lender and definitely do not fade.  Heck!  It is summer!

We will not agree on everything but C'est la vie!  Did I get that right Howard?  If not feel free to correct me.  So let get out there and enjoy life, volunteer, etc. and be thankful that we do not have to work as hard as these entrepreneurs and support them in whatever way we can.

Bernice - a quarter pack   

[waywardcats]

As is Kerry's old proposal that, too, (Kerry, I beg to differ) wasn't ignored but is rather common practice (PMing, mailing, contacting potentially interested parties and/or posting it on KF and/or the Team Tisket board).

Perhaps we are looking at this a little differntly Wolfgang so please let me clarify.  Here is the original proposal I made in February.

And in this spirit I would like to propose that Kiva Friends who participating in sharing loans should be sensitive to the interest of other lenders.  If you see and loan you like and you grab a chunk that you want to share, get in touch with those who you know might be interested. If those people don't respond, don't continue to hold the loan if there is little interest, but release it in a timely manner so that the Kiva lenders who are not on Kiva friends get a share in it also.

I have highlighted the portion that I was referring to as having been (in my perception) ignored.  "Timely manner" is of course something that can have widely disparate interpretations but from what I was seeing at the time the loans were being released when "all of it has been funded by our friends".  I myself spent long periods of time in chat just hanging out with people waiting for others to come by for a piece of one loan or another.  Perhaps what I should have said then was something like "if you are getting one taker per hour and you are holding $500 perhaps you should reconsider the level of popularity of this loan and drop some out of your basket".

Wolfgang,  I would be perfectly happy to concede that you are correct and that loans which are not filling quickly with other sharers are being released into the general loan pool after a short period of time.  The truth is, I have not been participating, nor really watching the loan sharing so I don't know whether it has or it has not been practiced.  I can tell you that from the outside it has not been my perception that portions of loans once grabbed by the sharing community go back into general circulation quickly. 

By all means, Karen, don't.

Agreed!  Karen, I cannot speak to what specifically happened with the loan to Maritza.  Whatever happened, I do not think that anyone bears you any ill will about it.  I hope that you choose to continue to hang around here with us at Kiva Friends.

As Kay and others have said, live and let live.  And also Bernice "c'est la vie!" works too.  As far as I am concerned those of you who enjoy sharing, go ahead and share, but please be courteous of others as much as you can.  Those of us who prefer not to share can stay out of it and find loans we like on our own, to each his or her own!

-Kerry-

[wthepoo]

I have highlighted the portion that I was referring to as having been (in my perception) ignored.  "Timely manner" is of course something that can have widely disparate interpretations but from what I was seeing at the time the loans were being released when "all of it has been funded by our friends".  I myself spent long periods of time in chat just hanging out with people waiting for others to come by for a piece of one loan or another.  Perhaps what I should have said then was something like "if you are getting one taker per hour and you are holding $500 perhaps you should reconsider the level of popularity of this loan and drop some out of your basket".

Thank you, Kerry, for clarifying - and I have to admit that indeed "timely manner" is a question of interpretation - especially when you have contacted potential "takers" that are in very different time-zones and probably not online for at least a couple of hours, so unable to react. I agree perfectly with the part "drop some out of your basket" (and do that - often with hindsight too soon) - but as far as I can tell, this, too, is common practice.

As far as I am concerned those of you who enjoy sharing, go ahead and share, but please be courteous of others as much as you can.

Thanks and of course!

Best wishes,
Wolfgang.

[Wood Fairy Glenda]

Hey, Karen - Please don't "fade into the background!" I love your comments, chat, and all other participation.  I certainly didn't mean to say anything bad about anyone else here in the forum.   Love all of you and want you all to stick around.   I just was feeling a little bit uneasy about my own participation in the loan-hoarding...... and, yes, it is, indeed, a lot of fun!

[waywardcats]

I agree perfectly with the part "drop some out of your basket" (and do that - often with hindsight too soon) - but as far as I can tell, this, too, is common practice.

Well if you drop some and others rush to fill the void perhaps rather than be disappointed that a couple of your old friends cannot share that particular loan you can enjoy the possibility of meeting new friends?        Isn't that part of what we enjoy about Kiva?  And certainly it's something  that brought many (all?) of us to Kiva Friends?  


Thanks Wolfgang, I am very happy to hear that consideration is being given to other lenders who might be watching loans that are being held!

-Kerry-

[Dagfinn]

It makes me think like this, if I use lining up for a roller coaster ride as an example;

1. scenario
I line up and after a long wait my friend comes along bypassing a long que behind me and get on with me - I am happy

2. scenario
He line up and after a long wait I come along bypassing a long que behind me and I get on with him - I am happy

3. scenario
I am standing in line and someone break into the que in front of me - I am unhappy

I find this very much what we talk about here.  One of my best times on here was almost two years back when someone reached out and invited me in, a third person even borrowing me money for a month.  I felt good, I belonged and we were doing great things I felt.

Quite a few times I tried to top a loan to get it under way just to see it needed topping out three times in the worst case and I got annoyed.

Not so long ago one dropped me a credit and a mistake happened and suddenly 10 credits was there and I grabbed it all feeling really good being part of that loan (as it was within my preferred type of loans and not so often around) and not at all thinking about sharing.

So, what I am trying to tell - it is an issue where I have mixed feelings and also with which I am not always showing my best sides - I just wish I could wholeheartedly rally behind the "not basket hoarding" principle but I am less than perfect and even enjoying it, at times.


Is it that I, I am human? Dagfinn A


edit; of all the things we miss from Kiva it is about time they sytart correcting  my spelling