Basket-Hoarders. Please Re-Consider the Impact You May Be Having On Others.

[Guest]

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[Jill]

I know even before I start this that this is going to be a wildly unpopular post.   I’m sort of at a point where I'm not sure I care.  How's that for a provocative beginning?  Actually, I'm not writing with an intention of trying to be provocative or a basshole (rhymes with.....).

Look, a substantial number of you made your opinions vehemently clear, some months ago, when I first raised the question of the fairness of basket-hoarding.   The near unanimity and quite vociferousness of response supporting hoarding loans for friends and for (no-names-will-be- mentioned-here-) teammates pretty much shut me down on the subject.  I kind of gave up on it, but I also realized I hadn't very effectively put forward my case, and I was pretty sure my ineptness in expressing what I was feeling probably contributed to the reception I got.

But just so you know, when I wrote, then, somewhere on the Mortgage the House thread, and as I write now, my concern had and, for that matter, now has very little to do with whether I, personally, might make it onto a particular loan or not but almost everything to do with what is best for Kiva and what feels fair.   I truly believe that just about everybody here wants what is best, ultimately, for Kiva and its entrepreneurs, and so it's kind of boggled me that we've ended up on different sides on this.

I'm worried I'm not going to be able to articulate a whole lot more effectively, this time, why I've been reacting so strongly to this than I did the last time, but I'm going to give it one more attempt.

For whatever it's worth, here's how I see it:
Look, the people who are here at KivaFriends, already, for the most part, have become hooked, many many many of us already really hooked on Kiva.   Whether any of us makes it onto a particular “special” loan or not will not make or break our feelings about Kiva.   They’ve got us.  We will continue lending because we’ve already seen that there are not only really special loans, here, every once in awhile, but there are all kinds of other reasons we’ve discovered that keep us wanting to come back.   Wanting to help eradicate poverty and give more people a decent chance in life being probably paramount.

But that’s true, that is, we'll keep coming back and coming back and lending, that's true just of us and of maybe a relatively small percentage of other Kiva lenders who have not joined the Forum.   Unless things have substantially changed since I was following things more closely, the great majority of people visiting the Kiva website have fewer than a handful of loans, if they’ve even made any.  As I understand it, one of Kiva’s greatest challenges is to figure out how to motivate more people to return to the website and either start or continue lending after they’ve had their first and possibly only exposure to the site.

Some of you who have been around here longer than some of the others will probably understand what I’m talking about when I say that earlier on, there were a whole lot more unique and tantalizing loans than we get to see now.   Whether it’s because of the now too predictable demise (or severance from Kiva) of the smaller, more shoestring, sort of community-generated Field Partners, coupled with Kiva’s tendency, now, to partner up with much larger, much more established and so, much “safer” MFIs, the loans, now,  often have a tendency to seem much more cookie-cutter, much more (forgive me) “run of the mill” than they used to be, and that, when the loans were a whole lot fewer in number than they are now.


As a consequence, loans like the School For Special Children that’s been “locked up” almost from the moment it first came on tonight are pretty few and far between.   In my mind, it’s that kind of loan that has the greatest likelihood of snagging the first-time visitor or convincing that website window-shopper to actually come on in to sample the wares.   But most people don’t even have a chance at a loan like that, anymore.  I’ve been following it as it’s crawled from something like 36 to 43 to 50 and now to 57% actually filled while it’s been for all intents, “closed”  because supposedly, the entire amount has been “raised so far” almost from the beginning of the time it first appeared.    And that even though every several minutes, a familiar face somehow miraculously manages to get in on what had otherwise seemed to be a loan that was totally closed out.

Can you guys not imagine how frustrating it has to be to people, particularly those who have not even found the Forum, to see loans like that and not to have even a chance at them?  Can you really not put yourself in the place of someone who sees a really attractive loan, fleetingly, maybe even repeatedly, but for reasons they can't for the life of themselves, figure out, finds they just never can get in on it, though it seems like other people have found a way?


I swear I’m not feeling holier-than-thou or superior and self-righteous about it.   At all.  Truth be told, most of the people on this loan and on many of the other loans that seem to get locked up almost as soon as they appear are some of my favorite people here and are people whom I know to have great and wonderful hearts.  Sure, on the particular loan, tonight, no question that it was one I would have loved to get in on, but it's not about me.  And really, you have to know in your hearts of hearts that it's not about you, either.  It's about Kiva and about everybody having an equal chance at the loans you and I find so appealing.  The entrepreneurs are going to get funded, one way or the other.  So, in a certain way, this is not about them, at least not about the current ones, who seem pretty safe so far as getting their loans filled by someone at Kiva goes. 

Anyway, go ahead and disagree with me if that's how it turns out, but please, before you write me and what I'm writing off, please try and think about it from the perspective of someone who isn’t in the “club” and might not even have a clue about how to get in, assuming they’d even want to.
I sign with caring,
Jill

The loan has now inched up to 64% actually filled with at least one additional team member's photo posted since I'd last looked.

[fredr1c]

Jill,

Thanks for saying this out loud and in public.

The other night, a KF wrote me to let me know that the remaining open portion of Judy's 2000th loan had been released to the general lending public.

I thanked this person and got in on the loan, because I think celebrating these milestones is a great idea. 

This person also noted that I'd be crossing a notable threshold myself soon.  I told them that I didn't believe in hoarding loans myself (which I've never done) or asking for pieces of hoarded loans (which I've done on occasion "long ago"), and that I wouldn't be designating a loan myself for that very reason -- because I didn't want any loan to be hoarded, especially in my name. 

I've even "crashed" at least one KF-hoarded loan -- waited to take a piece that I hadn't asked for, and gotten that piece.

KFs aren't the only ones that hoard loans, either.  I've crashed other hoarded loans as well.  (Firefox and Reload Every are great tools for hoard-breaking.)

For non-KF hoards I wouldn't even know who to ask for a piece of a loan, if I were to do so.  Which is what Jill is talking about.  Being in on a hoarded loan is like being part of a secret club that mere mortal Kiva lenders just can't get into.  

Even as a veteran lender nothing is more aggravating to me than being locked out of a loan, which is why, if I have the time and the patience, I'll just wait around and get in on a hoarded loan anyway.

Newbie lenders perhaps wouldn't know what was going on or how to work around it, which goes directly to the issue of attracting and keeping active new lenders.

To be frank, it sort of annoys me that any Kiva lender or lenders would presume to keep me from making any Kiva loan I want to make.  Whatever reasons they have for hoarding a loan don't outweigh the greater good of the entire Kiva lending community.  Individual Kiva loans shouldn't be, in my opinion, private playgrounds for select groups of lenders.

In what I'd consider an ideal situation, maybe a lender could say, perhaps on a larger group loan, "Hey, this is my special loan.  Come join me if you'd like to, if you can."  And the loan would be open, still, but designated for that special event.  Lots of friends could get in on the occasion but other Kiva lenders could get in on the loan as well.  And I think that's as it should be. 

Maybe many or most here will disagree, and think loan hoarding is perfectly okay. This opposing viewpoint still needs to be heard.

I believe every Kiva loan should be wide open to every Kiva lender, first come, first served.

[howard]

Jill,
First of all, I, and surely other people on KF, will thank you for your courage in posting this opinion. So would hundreds or even thousands not in KF, and not being involved to this degree, if they knew. The main problem, perhaps, is that Kiva (in spite of wanting 'free, open and equal access to all lenders at all times') sees nothing wrong in basket-hoarding, and does not take any steps to clamp down on it, or even discourage it; even the former time limits and amount limits have long since been discontinued. I see two reasons for Kiva's attitude. One is that, as you say, the loan will be funded anyway, and, two, that hoarding is on such a small scale these days that it is not worth regulating, and spending time on. The first is obviously correct, and the second one may well be true also. The Maritza loan you mention is, I think, the only one out of 750 at present on offer, to be hit by hoarders (and very few of them on this occasion). Much, or even most, of the time there are no loans being affected. We have seen a number blocked for special occasions, but the loans themselves were sometimes quite small and not so very special, with perfectly good alternatives available, so the 'sharing with friends' concept was genuine, and loss to others minimal. The main problem, to my mind, is new countries; there will, I am sure, be an unpleasant amount of grabbing, hoarding (whatever you like to call it) when USA, Ecuador (nearly new) and Kyrgyzstan come on offer, as there was for Mongolia. That is when the selfishness comes into the open (even from people as unselfish as you could imagine). However, the Mongolia loans are quite common now and can sit around for 2 or 3 days; and doubtless the loans from these 3 'new' countries will be equally common after a few weeks/months. So if Kiva is not willing to regulate, and the hoarders continue to see nothing wrong in their actions, then at least we know the situation should right itself before long.

Perhaps the non-hoarders just have to live with it. A pity though - as you say, it must spoil the Kiva experience for a very large number of people, and for so little advantage for so few people.

Howard

Edit;- you are quite right, Frederick, first come, first served is the only fair way for Kiva, and how can any fair-minded person disagree?

[Diane R]

To be frank, it sort of annoys me that any Kiva lender or lenders would presume to keep me from making any Kiva loan I want to make.
...
I believe every Kiva loan should be wide open to every Kiva lender, first come, first served.

you are quite right, Frederick, first come, first served is the only fair way for Kiva, and how can any fair-minded person disagree?

I would presume, then, that those who feel strongly about this are also concerned about the precedents being set by practices like the new Purex promotion, wherein a corporation grabs entire loans and doles them out to others via their own separate product promotional website.  Perhaps you will also speak out against that practice, which concerns me far more than the occasional basket-sharing.

--Diane.

[Wood Fairy Glenda]

Thanks, Jill, for bringing this up again, and thanks, too, to those who added their comments. Fred - as usual you're the one whose words have convinced me . 
     I, too, am approaching my loan #1000 (probably around the 15th). I will follow your well-thought-out example and not make an issue of it (also I probably won't be aware which loan hits the magic number). ( As much as I like to see my Kiva Friends on my loans, I hope none of my friends on the Tisket-a-Tasket team will hold any of whatever loan I choose for any of my other friends here.
     I have not joined the team, partly because I'm not a big fan of teams in general and partly because it made me uneasy.  Hypocrite that I am, though, I have taken advantage of it through "drops" on numerous occasions, partly because it is so much fun  and in part because I really like the other KFs on the team.  I have decided to stop doing this, for the reasons you have so elegantly expressed here.
     Ironically, I might have been the first KF to benefit from "hoarded loans". I well remember how much fun it was when my friends here - and even a member of the Kiva staff - helped me to get in on loans to two women in Uganda whom I had persuaded to go to their local microlender and apply for loans.
http://www.kiva.org/app.php?page=businesses&action=about&id=20854
http://www.kiva.org/app.php?page=businesses&action=about&id=20840
     ...and yes, Diane, I am very much bothered by the new Purex promotion and any other such commercial exploitation of Kiva.
Just my
  WF Glenda

[Jane Sladen]

  Hypocrite that I am, though, I have taken advantage of it through "drops" on numerous occasions, partly because it is so much fun  and in part because I really like the other KFs on the team.  I have decided to stop doing this, for the reasons you have so elegantly expressed here.

I think that you are not the lone hypocrite to comment here.  I have decided to stop this as well .. but you are right!  It was so much fun!

There was a comment the other day directed towards the Tisket Team - something to the effect that members who did not make many loans brought the stats down, based on the membership total.  Although I have partaken of basket sharing on numerous occasions, I (more often than not) attributed my loan to my own team.

So - I will fix two things with one stone!  I leave the Tisket team with many thanks!  It was great!  I shall miss it!    

Jane Sladen.

[Jan & John]

Ok - I admit to being a hypocrite.  I've never been part of a forum and found KF totally not knowing how hooked I could become.

I have enjoyed having a piece of loan dropped for my own particular enjoyment.  And I thank those willing to sit in chat holding a special piece. 

It's not the 'be all and end all' of my reasons for coming to KF but it has become 'added value' ?

Last night's loan is now the very best in my portfolio.  That boy could easily be my nephew.  I have been on the Disabled Team since teams began and so far have only been able to assign 5 loans there, including last night's Maritza and her son.  I am thrilled.  Even though that nice looking Donald in Japan managed to get my first drop. 

I only found it though, because the Tisket Team got a message telling us about this great loan just as I was shutting down my computer.  I stayed up an extra half hour and it was fun and I got to thank Cheryl and Karen and talk with Michelle in Australia as an added bonus, that doesn't happen often!

So now I have checked my stats with the Tisket Team.  I find that I have 27 loans credited to this team.  Not a large number in the scheme of things.  I am not generally a competitive person and I don't always get those from basket hoarding, sometimes just when the Mortgage thread sends me in a certain direction. 

So I'm gonna be one of those sitting on the fence. 
Almost convinced, Fred. 
But still wanting to have some fun, Jill. 
I want to have my cake and eat it too, but I promise not to be too greedy. 
How's that?

jan 

[waywardcats]

Thank you to Jill for bringing up this topic.   thanks also to Fred and all the others who have expressed such good and heartfelt thoughts about the practice of basket-hoarding, basket-sharing or whatever one may call it.  I participated in the beginning, and have even defended the practice in the past.  However, the shine went off of it for me rather a while ago, and in particular during the early days of Mongolia.  Every one of the early Moldova and Mongolia loans were locked up for exclusive Kiva Friends enjoyment only.  I began to feel things were getting cliquish and I have long been a person who does not feel comfortable in or around cliques.

For non-KF hoards I wouldn't even know who to ask for a piece of a loan, if I were to do so.  Which is what Jill is talking about.  Being in on a hoarded loan is like being part of a secret club that mere mortal Kiva lenders just can't get into.   

I also bothered me that there was little regard for outsiders, which is why I made a little proposal which was pretty much ignored.

Now that I look closely at my account, I see that I have remained a member of the Tisket team although the second of my two loans credited to the team was funded in February, so clearly I have not been not been doing my bit to support the team.  I have just left it.  While I appreciate my friends on the team, and certainly hope to continue doing so through Kiva Friends, I am not going to be participating in shared loans.

For myself I have found that after a while I stopped regretting the loans I was "missing" by voluntarily excluding myself from the sharing.  I found plenty of loans to fund that I connect with in some way.  But I do feel for those who on their first visit to the Kiva website see a loan they really like only to find that they are shut out of it.  I  can only hope that the practice has not caused any potential lenders to leave Kiva without taking any loans at all having not gotten onto that special loan that they missed.

As for your question about the Purex deal Diane, yes, it does bother me a bit that they have exclusive access to some loans, though I must say other things about the precedent of the partnership bother me more. 

I honestly do not expect anything to change now that Jill has introduced this topic again, however, I must say that I do feel better for having shared these thoughts publicly.

Thanks all for listening,

-Kerry-

[AccountAbility]

I would presume, then, that those who feel strongly about this are also concerned about the precedents being set by practices like the new Purex promotion, wherein a corporation grabs entire loans and doles them out to others via their own separate product promotional website.  Perhaps you will also speak out against that practice, which concerns me far more than the occasional basket-sharing.

--Diane.

I'm not much of a joiner and never have participated in a "basket sharing" activity.  I too have snagged some loans from basket releases meant for others (without feeling guilty in any way). In small unorganized ways, I don't have much of a problem with the activity.  But an organized effort by a significant number of lenders could cause some serious disruption, so I agree with Jill that we need to think of the bigger picture here--even if Kiva may not be yet.

Which brings up Diane's excellent point about Kiva's complicity in this sort of thing.  The Purex deal leaves me feeling uneasy. I would like to hear from Kiva about how far they are willing to bend to increase loan volume.  It feels like they are totally pragmatic in using "whatever works" as a value rather than a carefully thought through policy.

Dan

[cpbailey]

I think I will go make a loan to a man with a cow as penance for sometimes handing over a really great loan. 

Seriously though, it is all about poverty relief.  If Purex type deals mean that Kiva.org gets some publicity plus keeps the optional lending fee optional (which may make more people willing to participate), then I am not going to worry about 40-50 loans over the course of four months.  I suspect Purex came onto kiva.org, looked at the New loans and found ones which were not yet subscribed to.  If so, they were FIRST.  They just took a really big serving.  Meanwhile, there are over 700 loans to choose from.  Although I am not in the Basket sharing team, I am not going to stress if someone wants to hang in chat for hours to share a loan.  Just going to do my thing.

I generally deliberately leave the medical and education loans for those who love them.  And despite the fact that I often grabbed Mongolia when it first became available, I have yet to venture into loaning there.  I just am not going to stress over it all.

HEY!!!!  When do we start working on the calendar?  I am looking forward to this team spirit building project.  Who is in charge?  I am stepping aside on doing the quotes so someone else can have a turn...

Colette