Why is Kiva funding loans to people in THE RICHEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD?!

[Guest]

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[Ashley]

This is not what I signed up for. I will be withdrawing my support from Kiva as soon as possible and until this decision has been reversed. There are plenty of other ways to help the poor, so I'm going to find one.

It's obscene. Kiva died, June '09. Rest in peace.

[Dagfinn]

This is not what I signed up for. I will be withdrawing my support from Kiva as soon as possible and until this decision has been reversed. There are plenty of other ways to help the poor, so I'm going to find one.

It's obscene. Kiva died, June '09. Rest in peace.

You signed up to alleviate poverty, and that is not something restricted to what many on here (wrongfully defined, but that is another mater:) label the third world.

It is you and the other lenders that choose which loans one prefer to fund and being on here (Kiva that is) is not a support to some specific definition of a set of policies as they do not exist.

Else I suggest you set things in a wider perspective before you claim death on Kiva and label it as you do.  It is simply not fair and unjust!.



Dagfinn A

[tomviolence]

hi

I can understand what you are trying to say - that there are more people in greater need than in the US, but - (there is always a but), Kiva is not loaning to anyone. Lenders use Kiva to find loans they wish to fund.

A better question could be "Why is Kiva posting loans to be funded for US borrowers?" That is a radically different question.

No one is holding a Webley Mark 5 to your head and forcing you (or anyone else) to loan to anyone.

This reminds me of another contretemps - where once again, no one is forcing anyone to loan money to something they do not like.

As any organization grows, it will offend certain followers who see one vision for the future, and others who see a very different vision. Sometimes, the "leader's" vision is a path to oblivion. Other times, a great number of new followers take it to a much higher level.

Time will tell if US loans bring more money in for other loans, and more donations in to better serve other countries. If you look at the numbers, (look at Maria Shriver http://www.kiva.org/community/viewTeamLoans/?team_id=6960) - US loans do NOT dominate.

Does this move - objectively - add value ? Merely disliking the sound bite is not really rigorous.

[Wood Fairy Glenda]

Ashley, "obscene" is a bit much as a description of loans to the US.  Just say you don't like them, or, better yet, just ignore them and continue to lend to people you do approve of.  I just screen by "Amount loaned" and then check area by area.  Seldom do US loans come up.  Don't like them?  Don't help fund them.  Simple as that..... but why deny help to other poorer people all over the world?  Doesn't make sense to me.

[Ashley]

I agree with you on one point - "Why is Kiva posting loans to be funded for US borrowers?" would have been a much better title for this post and it is the issue I was wishing to discuss.

[Ashley]

Ashley, "obscene" is a bit much as a description of loans to the US.  Just say you don't like them, or, better yet, just ignore them and continue to lend to people you do approve of.  I just screen by "Amount loaned" and then check area by area.  Seldom do US loans come up.  Don't like them?  Don't help fund them.  Simple as that..... but why deny help to other poorer people all over the world?  Doesn't make sense to me.

The direction that this takes us in is wrong in my opinion. I certainly won't be denying help to other poor people all over the world, I will simply find another way to do it. Somewhere that doesn't see fit to put the owner of a photography and TV production business in Miami, on the same platform as a widowed mother of eight in Kenya who sells clothes on a muddy road.

http://www.kiva.org/app.php?page=businesses&action=about&id=114345&_tpos=13&_tpg=60

http://www.kiva.org/app.php?page=businesses&action=about&id=10671

It just doesn't seem right.

[damienlanfrey]

From any US loan page:

"   Important Information About This Loan
Kiva realizes that access to credit is a challenge for entrepreneurs everywhere. Kiva started out as a website focused on developing-world entrepreneurs. In June 2009, Kiva began experimenting with allowing entrepreneurs in the United States to raise money on its website. If this is something you support, please feel free to fund this loan. If you have questions, including how an entrepreneur in your neighborhood might get a loan, please visit our Help Center and click on "Loans in the United States."   "

Was this already there at the beginning? Maybe I just noticed it only now.

Anyway, it is still possible to fund other loans around the world (and fund them all!  ), to make a statement via lending, which is what this organization/movement is about, and to make Kiva verify its initial test in this way, seems fair enough for the moment.

Damien

[Ashley]

This is taken from Kiva's own website from the 'About Microfinance' section:

"Microfinance is the supply of loans, savings, and other basic financial services to the poor."

As the financial services of microfinance usually involve small amounts of money – small loans, small savings etc. – the term "microfinance" helps to differentiate these services from those which formal banks provide.

Why are they small? Someone who doesn't have a lot of money isn't likely to want to take out a $5,000 loan, or be able to open a savings account with an opening balance of $1,000. Hence – "micro".

WHY ARE THERE $10,000 LOANS TO US CITIZENS ON KIVA?

Has Kiva decided to branch out from Microfinance? After all, by their own admission these loans are not microfinance at all. Perhaps, with the collapse of so many large banking organisations around the world, they've seen a gap in the market!

Ok, so I'm being facetious, but you get my point.

[Jan & John]

This is taken from Kiva's own website from the 'About Microfinance' section:

"Microfinance is the supply of loans, savings, and other basic financial services to the poor."

As the financial services of microfinance usually involve small amounts of money – small loans, small savings etc. – the term "microfinance" helps to differentiate these services from those which formal banks provide.

Why are they small? Someone who doesn't have a lot of money isn't likely to want to take out a $5,000 loan, or be able to open a savings account with an opening balance of $1,000. Hence – "micro".

WHY ARE THERE $10,000 LOANS TO US CITIZENS ON KIVA?

Has Kiva decided to branch out from Microfinance? After all, by their own admission these loans are not microfinance at all. Perhaps, with the collapse of so many large banking organisations around the world, they've seen a gap in the market!

Ok, so I'm being facetious, but you get my point.

Tom, perhaps it's time someone saw the "gap in the market" as you call it. 
If the 'gap' wasn't already there then ACCION and Opportunity Fund would not have been already trying to fill it.

I didn't *think* we would lend to the US - and now I find we have 3 loans in our portfolio. 

We choose different loans for different reasons. 
That's what makes us individuals.
And there's lots more waiting for me to choose from.

And if Kiva hasn't gotten around to changing all the detailed information on the site to reflect changes in their process, then I chalk up one more for Kiva getting out and getting the job done and worrying about the small stuff later.  After all, aren't we the 'beta-testers' ?

jan

[doug]

Ashley, I totally agree with you...this sickens me. I'm thinking of cashing out and joining another organization.
BTW, I havent really spent that much with KIVA but my $1800 is above average.

[DoubleR]

I'm reminded of a Kiva Fellow blog by Evie Marzec titled "A Problem of Success" while she was in the Ukraine:

http://fellowsblog.kiva.org/2008/10/19/a-problem-of-success/

I would encourage everyone to read it if you haven't.  Evie makes a reasoned case as to why Kiva posts loans to Ukrainian merchants dressed in seemingly "middle class" attire and not of the elderly woman sitting on a blanket selling vegetables.

I concede that one can argue that Kiva has strayed from its mission of "lending for the sake of alleviating poverty".  However, I believe this was an issue prior to the US launch.  If this is the main argument against US loans, then where were the voices of these same critics when loans such as the following were posted....

The well-dressed Moldovan farmer carrying a Blackberry:
http://www.kiva.org/app.php?page=businesses&action=about&id=100443   or

This refinely dressed cosmetics saleslady from the Ukraine:
http://www.kiva.org/app.php?page=businesses&action=about&id=90995   or

The A/C retailer in Lebanon who is using his loan to pay for his wedding:
http://www.kiva.org/app.php?page=businesses&action=about&id=64767

I recall Premal saying in various interviews prior to the US launch saying something along the lines of "poverty exists everywhere" (if somewone can direct me to a link with a transcript or direct quote, that would be great).  I agree with that statement, but I don't think the US loans posted thus far meet that criteria.  I think there would be a stronger case for the US loans if they came from areas such as South Central LA (Premal's hypothetical example that he keeps using) or rural Appalachia.  If this isn't the reason behind the sentiment against the US loans, I'd be curious to learn what the true reasons are.

Regards,
Ronan

[mejane]

All of you who are leaving..........
Leaving Kiva is not going to hurt Kiva.........
Leaving is going to hurt the poor that we can help through Kiva. 
For me this is an easy way to make a difference.

Jane

[Kay]

 

[Ashley]

I'm reminded of a Kiva Fellow blog by Evie Marzec titled "A Problem of Success" while she was in the Ukraine:

http://fellowsblog.kiva.org/2008/10/19/a-problem-of-success/

I would encourage everyone to read it if you haven't.  Evie makes a reasoned case as to why Kiva posts loans to Ukrainian merchants dressed in seemingly "middle class" attire and not of the elderly woman sitting on a blanket selling vegetables.

I concede that one can argue that Kiva has strayed from its mission of "lending for the sake of alleviating poverty".  However, I believe this was an issue prior to the US launch.  If this is the main argument against US loans, then where were the voices of these same critics when loans such as the following were posted....

The well-dressed Moldovan farmer carrying a Blackberry:
http://www.kiva.org/app.php?page=businesses&action=about&id=100443   or

This refinely dressed cosmetics saleslady from the Ukraine:
http://www.kiva.org/app.php?page=businesses&action=about&id=90995   or

The A/C retailer in Lebanon who is using his loan to pay for his wedding:
http://www.kiva.org/app.php?page=businesses&action=about&id=64767

I recall Premal saying in various interviews prior to the US launch saying something along the lines of "poverty exists everywhere" (if somewone can direct me to a link with a transcript or direct quote, that would be great).  I agree with that statement, but I don't think the US loans posted thus far meet that criteria.  I think there would be a stronger case for the US loans if they came from areas such as South Central LA (Premal's hypothetical example that he keeps using) or rural Appalachia.  If this isn't the reason behind the sentiment against the US loans, I'd be curious to learn what the true reasons are.

Regards,
Ronan

Ronan, I would have taken exception to the Lebanon loan, had I seen it.

I'm sure there are many people in the US who could benefit from microfinance, but the loans posted so far appear, at least on the face of it, to be going to people who don't really need them. In fact most of them look better off than me and I consider myself to be incredibly fortunate and am constantly thankful for the position I am in.

Those are my true reasons.

[DoubleR]

Ronan, I would have taken exception to the Lebanon loan, had I seen it.

I'm sure there are many people in the US who could benefit from microfinance, but the loans posted so far appear, at least on the face of it, to be going to people who don't really need them. In fact most of them look better off than me and I consider myself to be incredibly fortunate and am constantly thankful for the position I am in.

Those are my true reasons.

Ashley,

Thanks for clarifying your position.

Regards,
Ronan

[A Nonny Mouse]

I don't intend to change any of my lending plans because of the US loans.  I find them interesting, just as I do all the other loans.  When I find one that 'speaks' to me, I will cheerfully loan to it.

I find it telling that two of Kiva's biggest lenders, LaurentD and Good Dogg, have lent to US borrowers.  If it's good enough for them, it's certainly good enough for me and my microscopic portfolio.   

Nonny

[joanna_h]

Given that all of every dollar you loan goes to who you choose (which can just be the very poor if you want) and kiva takes no cut of that, why does it matter who anyone else is able or willing to loan to? None of your money is going to people you aren't happy about funding, nor is it going to the people who made the decision to allow US loans.

[Rob1615]

the loans posted so far appear, at least on the face of it, to be going to people who don't really need them. In fact most of them look better off than me...

Poverty defies appearances.  What does poor look like?  Unshaven and in rags?  I've met a handful of poor people in my travels and the tidiness of their homes and neatness of their appearances would take many of us to task.

Beyond that point, your argument assumes a zero sum game (ie a dollar to a US borrower is a dollar less to a borrower elsewhere).  Certainly the addition of US borrowers has resulted in new capital for Kiva.  Most of these dollars are recycled into new loans to either additional US borrowers or those elsewhere in the world.  I would argue it's a net benefit to developing world borrowers who represent the overwhelming majority of loans and are therefore disproportionately advantaged by additional loan capital paid into Kiva.