USA loans

[Guest]

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[Alphecca]

Thanks, Kay. 

I got 2 copies of the abusing emails from some POed team, and it made me mad - 
I knew that it would be a topic here, so used that for motivation to get back in the KF groove (I didn't stop loaning!)

I'd just been off traveling, and docenting at the museum, etc...  Good to be back!

Cheers,
Alph


 

[Oriana]

I agree with Sarah and with Alphecca. I hope to see Kiva continue to expand and grow allowing people all over the world the opportunity to improve their lives. At the same time I do want the people who are really in need to be getting loans vs people who are not in such dire need. But I happily participate in both kinds! As long as I see that all Kiva loans are being quickly funded I am not going to worry. If there was a problem with loans not being funded then I personally would focus exclusively on those who are truly in need and I would want Kiva to be more focused in that way as well. (If my post here isn't very clear please forgive me as I have had a bad case of the flu and a bacterial infection.)
Oriana

[gill]

The idea that some of the borrowers on Kiva are richer/luckier/less desperate than others isn't exactly a new one, is it? Can there be any doubt that Vasil Pridnya (http://www.kiva.org/app.php?page=businesses&action=about&id=91954&_tpos=1&_tpg=9) has a bit more to fall back on than Che Beltha (http://www.kiva.org/app.php?page=businesses&action=about&id=7625&_tpos=4&_tpg=2)? Is it so much of a stretch to realize that some of the borrowers from, say, Costa Rica (where life expectancy, according to the field partner, is 77.4 years, and where such borrowers as Guiselle Castillo Vargas, http://www.kiva.org/app.php?page=businesses&action=about&id=63441&_tpos=19&_tpg=1, live) might be less 'in need' of a loan, when compared to a country like Sierra Leone (where life expectancy is a heart-breaking 40.58 years, and where women like Isatu Koroma, http://www.kiva.org/app.php?page=businesses&action=about&id=31685&_tpos=2&_tpg=9, have to struggle just to keep their kids fed)?

There's no doubt that the American borrowers are better off financially when compared to their Tanzanian or Tajikistan counterparts. But they still have businesses, and they still have families to support with those businesses, and considering what the economy's like at the moment, it would not surprise me at all if they were unable to find credit from other places.

That being said, it's perfectly understandable if a person wants to stick to the most poverty-stricken of people. There are plenty of loans to Sudan, or Rwanda, or Cambodia. (Off-topic, but one of the most eye-opening moments I've had on this site was coming across Cambodian loans for 75 or 50$!) But if Kiva wants to post loans of American borrowers, and there are people willing to fund them, then I say go for it.

As for the fear of American loans 'stealing funds' from the loans of poorer countries...again, why isn't anyone complaining about Costa Rica? Not to mention, I think you'd be hard-pressed to find loaners who only donate to America. I made one American loan, for instance, which cost me 25$--as opposed to the couple hundred that have gone to other places, like Sudan or Rwanda. The other countries are definetly still getting their loans filled; just look at how fast the Palestinian loans are going.

 I suppose my point is that it doesn't have to be a 'do I loan to Rwanda or America' situation, but a 'let me sell my couch so I can loan to America and Rwanda!' situation.  

[mejane]

I suppose my point is that it doesn't have to be a 'do I loan to Rwanda or America' situation, but a 'let me sell my couch so I can loan to America and Rwanda!' situation.  

  Jane (who is sitting on her Cambodian mat on the floor trying to reach the keyboard)!

[Kay]

Thanks, Kay. 

I got 2 copies of the abusing emails from some POed team, and it made me mad - 
I knew that it would be a topic here, so used that for motivation to get back in the KF groove (I didn't stop loaning!)

I'd just been off traveling, and docenting at the museum, etc...  Good to be back!

Cheers,
Alph

Sounds interesting, and useful!  

I've gotten a few of those e-mails, myself!

[marilyn386]

Ashley,

While I believe every Kiva lender has a right to loan to anyone he/she wishes, I have to agree with you that I don't like the turn Kiva has taken lending to the US.

Yes, Kiva is a lending site and not a charitable one, and maybe Kiva's mission statement doesn't specifically state that we will loan only to 3rd world countries, I do believe I was led to believe that as well.  When I loan $25 to someone in Africa, I hope and pray that that person pays me back; not because I need the money, but because I believe it means their ability to pay their loan signifies a small improvement in their overall situation.  If my loan defaults, as some invariably will, I take it in stride and treat it as a donation to a worthy cause (ok...it not technically a donation, but you know what I mean).

I do not plan to fund any US loans, but again, I believe that is a personal choice.  What I really fear is if one or more of these $10,000 loans defaults.  On the $400 loans outside the Us, maybe 16 Kiva lenders worldwide are affected.  If a $10,000 loan defaults, 400 lenders are affected.  If I were one of these lenders, I couldn't help but feel in the back of my head that this was a wasted loan... I would find it harder to treat it as a "donation" so to speak.  

This is why, while Kiva says that it is just broadening its horizon, that I feel it is really moving in the wrong direction.  I don't question their motives, I just don't believe the microfinance model that Kiva currently uses will work in the US.  If many of these loans default, it could ruin Kiva's reputation.

Maybe it's just me, but I feel this global recession started on the US's doorstep, with so many homeowners defaulting on their mortgages.  Yes, I do believe there was some fraud and misleading on the banks' side, but it takes two to tango and there were millions who signed on the dotted line.  If these Kiva loans default, it would almost seem like fraud to me... kind of like saying, "Well, this time we can't blame the banks"...

Ok, I'm being very pessimistic and dramatic here.  Even though I refuse to participate in the funding of US loans, I do sincerely wish the very best to these people.

Marilyn
Marilyn

[tomviolence]

.......
I do not plan to fund any US loans, but again, I believe that is a personal choice.  What I really fear is if one or more of these $10,000 loans defaults.  On the $400 loans outside the Us, maybe 16 Kiva lenders worldwide are affected.  If a $10,000 loan defaults, 400 lenders are affected.  If I were one of these lenders, I couldn't help but feel in the back of my head that this was a wasted loan... I would find it harder to treat it as a "donation" so to speak.  
........
Marilyn

I find some of the US loans do not have a good "value proposition" - for instance there is a two year loan to pay for 1 years insurance on a taxi (and a repair) - but still does not make economic sense to me. Other loans are better, where the person already has paid off a loan to the MFI.

The $10,000 loan might be "too big to fail" - but we will not know until nearly 4 years from now. (loan term + 6 months = 36 months + 6 months = 42)

I could have "flipped" a $25.00 loan for 5 months 8 times.

Just because these loans do not entice me, does not mean they should be pulled, but rather I am making my choices based on my criteria whether or not to fund them.

Some folks might have completely different outlook and these might be a way for them to loan $25 in a way that is meaningful for them.

Small businesses are needed in America, and it is hard to get credit. The value they create multiples. They might use other small businesses, or provide services to other people and businesses that a larger company can't or wouldn't.

If you look, most of the loans here are to people who have businesses. Kind of means they aren't poor if they have a businesses ? What no ? Use that same standard on US loans.

[Canadian Here]

I am one of the people who lent to Miguel Jose, the photographer from Miami.
He needs a loan to improve his business opportunities. He has a business, a family and God knows what other commitments that frankly, are none of my business. Clearly, he works hard and deserves to succeed. If we can help him along the way, as one human being to another, why not?
There is "priviledge" attached to being a white, middle-class (or better) American, male. Unless I miss my guess, this man is likely an immigrant and likely not white. From that perspective, ANY white American born male is is a more privileged postiion than this particular Kiva borrower.
I hope Miguel gets his loan. I'll be very disappointed in some of the people who call themselves "Kiva Friends" if he does not.
While everyone has the privilege of picking the businesses to which they choose to lend, I hope that none of us feels that we have a right to deny any legitimate business owner the right to appear on this site or the right to prevent others from selecting them as a prospective Kiva borrower.
IMHO, this would be very wrong: in the moral sense, if not the legal one.

That's my two cents worth.

Lorna

[Dagfinn]

IWhile everyone has the privilege of picking the businesses to which they choose to lend, I hope that none of us feels that we have a right to deny any legitimate business owner the right to appear on this site or the right to prevent others from selecting them as a prospective Kiva borrower.
IMHO, this would be very wrong: in the moral sense, if not the legal one.

That's my two cents worth.

Lorna

Well said Lorna    I think if the entrepneours are compared to their local standard of living they will all fall in under the same bracket; the working poor.  In those countries where we see photos and now the living standard is low and much lower that we as lenderes enjoy it still is so that they do not represent the poorest in their geography.  It is said and reminds us we should do other work as well beside Kiva but to repeat myself; Kiva shall have credit for its willingness to focus on the working poor anywhere and having US loans on here shoudl be an eye opener to us all.


Dagfinn A

[wthepoo]

(Basically) just re-posting here something that Tatiana posted in another thread:

But still, my one US loan to Amanda gave me a lot of joy. I realised she probably has a better income than I currently have myself. So in this case it wasn't me, this rich girl from the West, helping somebody not so well off somewhere in the South. It was just me, having an opportunity to do something nice for somebody whom I didn't personally know. A random act of kindness, something like that...

Nothing wrong with random acts of kindness IMHO - and for me, that is also part of what Kiva is all about. I still probably won't fund too many US entrepreneurs in the future as - like so many have pointed out - our support is probably more desperately needed elsewhere and as our $25 carry further in other places.

But I think it's good that Kiva offers the opportunity to fund US entrepreneurs - at least as long as there are still enough funds "in the system" to fund all other requests (to monitor this might get interesting later this month). Also, - like so many others - I do think the publicity effect of US loans might in the long run bring so many new lenders to Kiva that all benefit (fredr1c called it a prospective "win-win", and I basically agree that this is likely to happen).

And I think it's great that Kiva (a) points out that microfinance (with slightly larger sums, yes) happens in the US, too, and (b) supports the US microfinance system.

Best wishes,
Wolfgang.