USA loans

[Guest]

.

[Unilove]

I have been an advocate to friends and family about Kiva's mission of microfinance to alleviate poverty in other countries.  I hope I am not the only person who was subsequently asked "But what about poverty here in the US?  Why not help our citizens?"  So, during one Kiva Conference call, I posed the question of whether Kiva intended to offer US loans. 

I was happy to hear that the US was added.  I know there are poor families, families that are victims of disasters living in trailers, and children unable to go to school, or even going hungry.  In my mind, I was expecting that the touching stories of these individuals would be the ones we would see.  Well, the US loans are not what I pre-supposed or imagined.  So what?

Kiva does great work in the world.  The concept is sound.  The platform works.  We lenders make a difference.  You have the power to choose.

What more do you want for $25? 

[Dagfinn]

Kiva does great work in the world.  The concept is sound.  The platform works.  We lenders make a difference.  You have the power to choose.

What more do you want for $25? 

Thank you for a good post - you hit the basics very well  in my view.  To answer your question though; the very fact that the concept is sound and that the platform works is sucha novelty on this planet that we aspire for more!  When so many gret thing have happened we want to grow and not just be content with status quo.

Therefore I welcome all these exchanges of thought on here as I think it in the longer run will educate us all and bring about new changes for greater good as that is part of making a difference also.


Be well, Dagfinn A

[joanna_h]

I question the validity of the poll in this topic because the question is not well worded. i suspect that using "the worlds richest country" rather than just "America" could bias the results somewhat.

Yes, America is a rich country overall, although once you adjust for population size, the GDP per capita places it as 10th, not the richest. (source: CIA factbook) More importantly, you cannot make a call on the conditions for all citizens on the basis of a countries GDP. Rich country doesn't always mean rich people. A capitalist system as used in the USA doesn't tend to lead to economic equality. It is possible to be very poor in the midst of a rich country because the distribution of capital and opportunities is very uneven.  


*Jumps off sociology student soapbox*  

[Ashley]

I have read with interest all of the replies so far and I'm glad this matter has attracted some interest.

I still firmly believe that the USA loans I have seen so far should not be listed on Kiva.

Clearly the loans so far are not going to alleviate poverty and that is (or at least was) Kiva's mission.

Citizens in the USA and other highly developed countries may be going through a bit of a rough patch due to the economic downturn, but their options for credit and for generating capital are still enormous compared to most other parts of the world. There are already banks, credit unions and other bodies providing for the needs of these people.

I might be persuaded that loans to the USA as a concept could have a place on Kiva as there are clearly people in the USA who do live in poverty. So far though, none of those people are on here.

I will continue to loan when I am able to, however I will not be donating anything to Kiva. Call in a protest. Call it whatever you like. While TV producers in Miami who need a new camera or child minders who want $10,000 to build a shed are accepted as suitable candidates for Kiva loans, I cannot give what little money I have towards setting these up.

[Australia]

Clearly the loans so far are not going to alleviate poverty and that is (or at least was) Kiva's mission.

Exactly. There's the guy running an "emergency  barbecue" business and the architect/graphic designer of 15 years who wants a loan to start his own company! I think classifying either of these loans as "relieving poverty" even by US standards is a pretty sick joke.

So I looked at the website of one of the MFI (Accion USA) to see if this MFI really "have a stated mission to reduce poverty" as claimed by Kiva in their new Terms & Conditions.

Nope. Of course not. Accion USA's mission statement is to provide: "microloans and other financial services to low- and moderate-income entrepreneurs who are unable to access bank credit for their small businesses".

[Limesarah]

While TV producers in Miami who need a new camera or child minders who want $10,000 to build a shed are accepted as suitable candidates for Kiva loans, I cannot give what little money I have towards setting these up

Well, that's your choice.  But I'm not sure why a Ugandan woman running a childcare center is a wonderful use of microfinance, while a New York City woman who has also ended up outside the normal banking system running a childcare center is a hideous misrepresentation of Kiva's mission. 

The US borrowers aren't all that poor.  Many of the Eastern European borrowers aren't all that poor, either.  Giving a US borrower a $500 loan would maybe enable them to buy a day's worth of food for their store or pay a fraction of a month's rent.  5 or 10 thousand dollars *is* microfinance in the US. 

There's the guy running an "emergency  barbecue" business and the architect/graphic designer of 15 years who wants a loan to start his own company! I think classifying either of these loans as "relieving poverty" even by US standards is a pretty sick joke.

So, because he has a cute name for his business, it's a horrible thing?  Food vendors and restaurants are one of the largest sectors Kiva serves in other countries. 

[Australia]

So, because he has a cute name for his business, it's a horrible thing?

No, as I stated, the horrible thing as you put it, is that neither of these loans can possibly be considered as "relieving poverty". As I thought was clear from posting the MFI's mission statement: they are not in the business of relieving poverty (which Kiva claims all their MFIs are).

[Canadian Here]

Exactly. There's the guy running an "emergency  barbecue" business and the architect/graphic designer of 15 years who wants a loan to start his own company! I think classifying either of these loans as "relieving poverty" even by US standards is a pretty sick joke.

I think it depends on the definition of "poverty" to which you prescribe. "Poverty" means different things to different people and varies from one community to another. In third and fourth world countries it may mean starvation. In North America it might mean inability to pay the rent and feed the kids.
Get it?

Thanks!

Lorna

[Ashley]

While TV producers in Miami who need a new camera or child minders who want $10,000 to build a shed are accepted as suitable candidates for Kiva loans, I cannot give what little money I have towards setting these up

Well, that's your choice.  But I'm not sure why a Ugandan woman running a childcare center is a wonderful use of microfinance, while a New York City woman who has also ended up outside the normal banking system running a childcare center is a hideous misrepresentation of Kiva's mission. 

Because, one is helping to relieve poverty (which is the first sentance of Kiva's mission statement), while the other, clearly, is not. The example I used was not hypothetical. Check it out:

http://www.kiva.org/app.php?page=businesses&action=about&id=113826&_tpos=2&_tpg=1

That's a Mollie Stone shopping bag behind her for crying out loud! She owns a pacifica home large enough for her to look after up to 14 children! Under what definition is this woman in poverty?!

This and many other USA loans are completely out of line with Kiva's mission statement. This is one of many LOANS THAT WILL NOT CHANGE LIVES.

Bottom line is, it undermines Kiva's mission statement thus undermining the entire purpose of Kiva. If they wish to continue lending to American borrowers, they need to change their mission statement and let its members know otherwise it's entirely misleading.

[damienlanfrey]

This is being a a very very interesting conversation to read, as so often here on KF
Lots of fine points on both sides, really.

Don't want to say anything too broad or vague, but definitely this is being testing important thoughts for us all - and for Kiva staff, at the same time - on our definitions of poverty but also on the type of "social change" we would like to see produced through Kiva.
Normally in "traditional" social movements, for example, these visions might be kind of "pre-imposed" (strong word) by some ideological commitment. What I like about Kiva is the fact that this is constantly discussed.

Individual choice seems to be the most common underlying value, although there might be a gap between this idea and considering Kiva like a "market" (something like Prosper, what Kiva is anyway not), this gap including visions on the type of people to help or the type of concerns to keep into consideration .

My running survey (signature below   ) is looking at that, at how we are engaged with Kiva and what it means to us, and hopefully with a growing amount of answers will reveal some of these things.

Damien