USA loans

[Guest]

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[linaka]

Oh thank you - wow!

Lynda

[RichardF]

Ok, enoug is enough.

I deleted the message on the two teams I captain and filed the following complaint to contactus and the captains team.


To Captains Team: As team captain, I deleted the spam message and filed the following complaint with Kiva.
---
To Kiva: ToU Violation

I just deleted another spam message by
http://www.kiva.org/lender/sverre7247

The text is noted here.
http://www.kivafriends.org/index.php/topic,3922.msg62557.html#msg62557

This has to stop.
Richard F

[JohnR]

I'm team captain of the Kiva Buddhists team; I deleted his message from our board and posted this one:

"Someone joined our team long enough to post a spam message regarding Kiva's recent decision to include loans to individuals in the USA (as he did with all the other teams), then left. As team captain, I'm deleting his message. It's irrelevant whether I agree or disagree with him, I just don't think this is the place to wage these kinds of battles.

"There is active debate about the USA loans going on at the Kiva Friends website, and if you're interested in joining in please head over there (www.kivafriends.org). It's a good site for information and discussion on Kiva-related things."

John

[gill]

The message was spammed on the Kiva Jews lending team as well. What annoys me about this is admittedly selfish, but directly under that post is one I left with a link to one of the close-to-expiration-date Bolivian loans, along with a request that people take a look at the red-liners on the last few pages. Like linaka said, a lot of people don't scroll down...I'd hate for people to miss out on noticing loans because of a spam message* that's been posted to practically every other group, including those already debating the topic as it is!

*If it wasn't a spam post, it wouldn't bother me, but as it is it's feeding everyone the same old, same old information. No one's learning/reading anything from that post they haven't read in every other team they're in! 

[Kyle]

Part of the appeal of the Kiva system is that each of us gets to choose whom we want to support and we get to show that support publicly on our lender page.  There was already a great diversity of attitude pre-US loan launch.  We all have our personal mini-Kiva’s and our little institutions can choose to remain true to the “developing world only” view or not.  Better yet, with the addition of the team concept, we now have the ability to form our own unique “sub-cultures” within the larger Kiva community.

If the presence of US loans prevented us as individuals from supporting those we want to support individually, I would understand the outcry regarding the US loans.  However, the dominant concern appears to be the opposite—there may be too many loans of the type the anti-US group wishes to support.  To my knowledge, nobody on the anti-US group is claiming that there will not be enough loans that they wish to support individually or as “sub-cultures.” 

What I find most unfortunate is that the group that has no concerns over getting to fund their preferred loan types wishes to prevent others from being able to fund the loans that others may want to fund.  An anti-US sub-group (within the larger anti-US group) even wishes to impose their notion of poverty on everyone else that disagrees with them—including the Kiva organization itself—and force the termination of US loans.  I find the spam message floating around remarkable in its hostility.

I am confident I am a co-loaner on at least a couple hundred loans with people who are against Kiva supporting loans in the US.  As an actual loaner on 4 US loans (gasp), I feel strangely confident that I am a co-loaner with at least one person of the anti-US loan persuasion as part of my loan in Haiti today:

http://www.kiva.org/app.php?page=businesses&action=about&id=121210


I find this to be the real strength and hope of Kiva.  In the midst of this “controversy,” we are still coming together to support entrepreneurs without even agreeing on what poverty means.  This kind of coming together is routine in this community.  This is why I find the agenda of those who want to put a stop to loans within the US to be particularly misguided.  I believe the wish to impose a definition of poverty on other lenders in the community goes against the underlying spirit of the community more than Kiva providing a micro-loan to Bill Gates.

I would like to make loans to people in the US at a rate not to exceed 5% of my overall portfolio.  If you are a member of the anti-US persuasion, why do you feel you have the right to take that ability away from me, as there is nothing I am doing or advocating that would prevent you from avoiding making loans in the US?  You don’t even have an alternative place to send me that works exactly as Kiva does.  Why do you feel you can limit my choices when I am doing nothing to limit yours? 

[Dagfinn]

I deleted the message on the two teams I captain and filed the following complaint to contactus and the captains team.


To Captains Team: As team captain, I deleted the spam message and filed the following complaint with Kiva.
---
To Kiva: ToU Violation

I just deleted another spam message by
http://www.kiva.org/lender/sverre7247

The text is noted here.
http://www.kivafriends.org/index.php/topic,3922.msg62557.html#msg62557

This has to stop.
Richard F

I am sorry to say that my fellow countryman is rather outdated.  From his profile he states “I wish to help people in undeveloped countries help themselves” which is a term not used for many years as it is commonly accepted as discrimination towards the countries in question for a number of reasons.  Being a lawyer one would expect better from him.

If we use the correct term, developing nations it still makes me puzzled as he has lent to Bolivia, Cambodia, Samoa, Paraguay, Lebanon, Nigeria and Dominican Republic so far.  Being a loose term it is not exact science but for sure Lebanon is a developed nation as it is industrialized.  That it is tormented from war, last the 2006 month long battle between Israel and Hezboolah were Israel had to withdraw,  is another matter and yes indeed a good cause as any to be funded by microloans here on Kiva.  Even though it with ease can be argued that the banking system in Lebanon reach further, broader and deeper into the Lebanese people then is the case for USA.

I favour loans to Lebanon myself as I see it as a way of paying damages for a policy that Norway quietly approves of as a silent follower to US support of the warmonger in that region that bullies a lot of people into poverty for the sake of own welfare.  But likewise I favour supporting US loans as that goes to show that applying loans to those not able to get ordinary loans are a group of people that know no borders and exist everywhere, also in our own country Sverre.

I believe that if Kiva could show the world that loans to the working poor is a global issue it will be an eyeopener that shows us that the labels we throw around with such ease is a restraint on people everywhere.

On Kiva you and the rest of us have a chance to fund loans that we desire to fund, on criteria we choose ourself.  We have the chance to fund loans we are not particularly interested in but find worthwhile as a strong Kiva is a good thing in itself.

Kiva is not perfect, actually with a proven track record of being stubborn and not living up to their self-proclaimed standard of transparency – but still; this is what we have so far and it is far better than most option.


-- Dagfinn A

corrected spelling

[Unilove]

I would like to make loans to people in the US at a rate not to exceed 5% of my overall portfolio.  If you are a member of the anti-US persuasion, why do you feel you have the right to take that ability away from me, as there is nothing I am doing or advocating that would prevent you from avoiding making loans in the US?  You don’t even have an alternative place to send me that works exactly as Kiva does.  Why do you feel you can limit my choices when I am doing nothing to limit yours? 

 

[wthepoo]

I believe that if Kiva could show the world that loans to the working poor is a global issue it will be an eyeopener that shows us that the labels we throw around with such ease is a restraint on people everywhere.

On Kiva you and the rest of us have a chance to fund loans that we desire to fund, on criteria we choose ourself.  We have the chance to fund loans we are not particularly interested in but find worthwhile as a strong Kiva is a good thing in itself.

Kiva is not perfect, actually with a proven track record of being stubborn and not living up to their self-proclaimed standard of transparency – but still; this is what we have so far and it is far better than most option.

Thank you, Dagfinn!

 

Best wishes,
Wolfgang.

[xriva]

I'm having a very difficult time understanding the problem. I was sent over here from the Happy Kiva Users' team discussion, where it appears that the core problem for many of the anti-US loan group  is "my poor are better than your poor", which is just ridiculous. Poor is poor. I would think the working poor in a rich nation would have even more difficult issues raising capital, simply because the markets are designed for those whom the markets deem creditworthy.

I also don't understand "you have a US loan, so I can't support you at all." This was the same basic argument that used to come up every year at companies who support the local United Way. Some of the United Way funding would go to abortion clinics or churches or some other intolerable destination, so people would refuse to donate at all.

In a way, that argument almost made sense to me - you couldn't control where your money went, because United Way was just one big bucket. On Kiva, you can control where your money goes - you click the loan you want to support. If you think the working poor in the US do not deserve your support, don't support them! Just because others see the benefits of helping at home doesn't mean you have to agree.

I also think it's interesting that a lot of people who are complaining about US loans are not in the US, but in the rest of the industrialized world. It would be interesting (I'm sure it's out there) to see what percentage of US loans are funded by lenders in the US. Charity for many of us begins at home.

(For the conspiracy-minded, think about how many people in the US would probably refuse to send money overseas at all on principle and can now provide micro-finance loans to their fellow citizens.)

If everyone supported their own working poor, we wouldn't need Kiva. If you look at the lists of loans available, you will realize we do.

I thought the photographer cited in the stream above was an interesting case of "he doesn't need the money." My wife and I have a very small side business doing photography, in addition to my real job. My real job income is what allowed us to buy about US$1500 worth of equipment that we needed for a photo shoot that will probably net US$400. We will use the equipment for other projects, so it is amortized over time, but we needed it before the shoot and the shoot's income would not have covered the costs, anyway. We could have just rented it, but again, you need the money up front. So, I feel for the guy. Decent photographic equipment is expensive and you need it before you can work to raise the money to pay for it. Also, if he looks good in the photo, shouldn't he? He's a photographer.

So, I really wish all the howling over the US loans would cease. If you don't think our poor are as worthy as African poor or Asian poor, then send your money there. Not sending your money anywhere just because you have an option to send it here defeats the whole purpose of helping someone.

[Diane R]

I typically don't do this, but....       xriva    and     Kyle


--Diane.