Political discussions and rants

[Guest]

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[bala]

@ gill
see this http://www.max71.com/ you buy a car and get a AK47 for free. This is your America.
I do not blame the entrepreneurs (who are richer then myself) but yout government.
I speak to American soldiers every day at my work. Poor youngsters, their only way to gain a living. But what are they doing here in Belgium? Controling the nukes in Grote Brogel? What are these nukes doing here? Keep them in the USA.
Destroyng the Palestine people is the work of jews and the USA. learn history.
@linaka
@mootinator
<sup>Uit een recenter onderzoek zou blijken dat de oorlog in Irak al meer dan een miljoen Irakezen het leven heeft gekost in de periode tussen de invasie in maart 2003 en augustus 2007. Dit onderzoek werd uitgericht door twee onderzoeksbureau's, Opinion Research Business en het Independent Institute for Administration and Civil Society Studies.[15]

De VN Vluchtelingenorganisatie UNHCR schatte in april 2007 dat er in het totaal 4,1 miljoen Irakezen ontheemd zijn door de Irakoorlog, waarvan er 2 miljoen buiten Irak op de vlucht zijn en 1,9 miljoen binnen Irak. [16])

Er vielen 4469 doden bij de Amerikaanse coalitie (9 september 2008[4]) sinds het begin van de oorlog, waaronder 4155 Amerikaanse strijdkrachten. Daarnaast vielen er onder de Amerikanen 30.324 gewonden als gevolg van vijandigheden (1 juli 2008[4]).</sup>

Opinion Research Business en het Independent Institute for Administration and Civil Society Studies. say more then a million killed between march 2003 en august 2007. We are now 2 years a many dead later.
4.1 million Iraqi's on the run, 2 million outside Iraq, 1.9 million whithin Iraq.
All because the US leaders lied about weapens of massdestruction and Al Qaida.
http://www.unhcr.org/admin/ADMIN/462490411.html

An Opinion Research Business (ORB) survey conducted August 12-19, 2007 estimated 1,220,580 violent deaths due to the Iraq War (range of 733,158 to 1,446,063.) Out of a national sample of 1,499 Iraqi adults, 22% had one or more members of their household killed due to the Iraq War (poll accuracy +/-2.4%.)[281] ORB reported that 48% died from a gunshot wound, 20% from car bombs, 9% from aerial bombardment, 6% as a result of an accident and 6% from another blast/ordnance

This due to colateral damage as American leaders call it.
But its true, Vietnam took 2.500.000 killed. So the Iraqis must be glad that the American army kills accuratly now.
Count in Afghanistan and those killed in 48 other countries where the American army and the CIA came by and you can speak about millions of dead people , killed by the USA.

I hoped Obama would change all that, but his hands are bound.
He was going to close Guantanamo? He did not.
More soldiers into Afghanistan.
Torturing prisoners.
A lot of international conventions are never signed by the USA.
International court in The Hague?
Geneva convention?
Kyoto?
And so on.

Keep on dreaming.
We know that you are so malinformed by your media, as they are owned by the right wing white power.

[Henry]

I'm impressed by 'Bala's' ignorance.

oops, you'd think I don't care anymore! 

[wthepoo]

The preceding posts have been moved here from the USA loans thread.

Best wishes,
Wolfgang.

[carien]

Bala, There are only a few here who can read Dutch. So if you want to make a point don't put it here in Dutch.


Carien

Who can read Dutch

[Marianne N59° 23' 60 - E18° 19' 60]

I'm impressed by 'Bala's' ignorance.

I beg to differ, Henry. A person like Bala who by general standards is fairly well informed cannot by any stretch of imagination be called ignorant. The input provided by Bala is accusatory, abusive, belligerent, inflammatory and Anti-American, in part besides the point, but ignorant it is not.
@Bala
I am bewildered as to why you might have chosen to attack a forum that firstly is as devided over US loans as are the rest of Kiva, and secondly is prepared to let everybody follow their own moral compass. Here, nobody will force their ideas on you, while you seem to think you are free to use exactly the very aggression that you are condemning the US and all its citizens of, including those in this forum. If I have ever seen a forum that is tolerant of diverging opinions, while still maintaining general curtesy, it is this one. You might want to return that curtesy, unless insult is your only objective.

It has already been said in earlier posts that it is pointless to accuse citizens of a particular country of their governments' wrongdoings, past or present. I am not the government of my country and you not of your's. So what are you hoping to achieve here?
You seem to be well read, you can not possibly think that this forum will get the US government to sway toward your view of gun control, domestic or foreign policy, views on race, religion or indeed anything else. It is not our objective either. This forum discusses  loans to the working poor - and nowadays that includes the US, whether we like it or not, and some of us don't - and the latter explicitly is, why there is a discussion going on. A discussion, not an exchange of abuse of certain nations or religions.
So one more time:
what is it you wish to achieve here?
Will you be satisfied only if this forum unites behind your ideas? You know that is not going to happen, holding and allowing diverging ideas of the world is the nature of democracy and indeed the very essence of what is called civilisation. Isn't that what you are defending, freedom for everyone on this planet to choose their way of life - without interference?
I am hoping you will choose to provide an answer to what you wish to achieve in this forum, not another torrent of abuse.

Best regards  - Marianne

[Limesarah]

Destroyng the Palestine people is the work of jews and the USA. learn history.

I was supposed to be destroying the Palestinians?  Not lending them money?  Whoops!  Clearly I didn't read the secret handbook closely enough.  I'll get right on it...

[cpbailey]

Is this a tyRANT issue?  Or an ignoRANT issue? 

I just want to find loans that sing a melody that jives with whatever mood I happen to be when loans repayment date happens.  I vote, and as often as not my choices are not elected.  Never mind that by the time primaries come to my state, many contenders are already out of the running for president.  So please don't hold my government's choices against me.  It is like blaming a raindrop for the flood.

It seems so much healthier emotionally to do something over which we CAN control or affect.  So maybe the challenge should be "What can I do that would make my world just a little better?"  Then go out and do it!  It doesn't matter if it is driving an elderly neighbor to the store or buying supplies to build a school halfway around the world.  Put effort into where an impact can be made.

Colette

[bala]

The moderator starts a topic with an answer of me on a other post.
You have to read all my other answers to know my opinion.
First of all I have to write in another language.
I have nothing against americans, at the contrary, i feel pity with them.
It goes about poverty and loans to the poor.
When i started a while ago on Kiva, it was about the poor in the third world. The board decided to start loans in the USA, without asking.
What I try to say is that I know that 20% of the american people live in poverty. I've seen people living in tents, doing 3 jobs to feed their children.
But what I see from hee is a arrogant state, spending biljons in stupid wars that were unneccesary, based on lies from the leaders of that country. Those leaders forced other countries to be "the coalition of the willing"
There is the basis of the poverty in the USA.
So if the people op the USA forces there government to rtrieve there warmachine, there will be enough money to give every poor american a job, a home and a few million dollar.
I am not ignorant, I am well informed. In the USA the media are controlled by the right wing, and a lot of what happened in the world is not to see in the USA media.
I know it is not possible to change all that.
So I quit KIVA .
http://www.lendforpeace.org/index.php is a good alternative, the country is oppressed for 60 years know by the jews and the help of the USA.
The bombs are made in the USA.
Our soldiers are cleaning up the mess of clusterbombing in Lebanon, clusterbombs, made in the USA.
And I say it agian: I have nothing against any american, I disguise the government and those who support the warmongers.

[Dagfinn]

Collette - really a good read, especially your second paragraph  I found close to my own heart 

I am just sad it took me so long time to understand that I better start by doing something myself then shout to all others what I deem wrong or find right

Bala - I wonder; what is your line of thought on person versus country?  Secondly; should Kiva ask us before they put online a new country with entrepenours, even though some, maybe many, find that new country being of different stature?

Third I have an interest to hear yoru view (and others as well) on if we should address to Kiva the fact that several countries which is at the bottom of the latter povertywise (according several official and reputable sources) are not on at Kiva?

-- Dagfinn A

[Henry]

for myself - an attempt to understand Bala better.

The moderator starts a topic with an answer of me on a other post.
You have to read all my other answers to know my opinion.
First of all I have to write in another language.
I have nothing against americans, at the contrary, i feel pity with them.
I have nothing against Americans, on the contrary, I sympathize with them.
It goes about poverty and loans to the poor.
My issue is about poverty and loans to the poor.
When i started a while ago on Kiva, it was about the poor in the third world. The board decided to start loans in the USA, without asking.
When I started KIVA a while back, it was focused on helping the poor in the third world.  The Board decided to start loans in the USA, without asking.
What I try to say is that I know that 20% of the american people live in poverty. I've seen people living in tents, doing 3 jobs to feed their children.
I know that 20% of the American people live in poverty. I've seen people living in tents, doing 3 jobs to feed their children.
But what I see from hee is a arrogant state, spending biljons in stupid wars that were unneccesary, based on lies from the leaders of that country. Those leaders forced other countries to be "the coalition of the willing"
What I see from here is a arrogant country, spending billions on stupid wars that were unnecessary, they were based on lies from the US Government.  The government who forced other countries to join the fight.
There is the basis of the poverty in the USA.
There is the basis of the poverty in the USA.
So if the people op the USA forces there government to rtrieve there warmachine, there will be enough money to give every poor american a job, a home and a few million dollar.
So if the people of the US forced their government to retrieve their 'war machine' there would be enough money to give every poor American a job, a home and a few million dollars.
I am not ignorant, I am well informed. In the USA the media are controlled by the right wing, and a lot of what happened in the world is not to see in the USA media.
I am not ignorant, I am well informed. In the USA the media is controlled by the right wing, and a lot of what happens in the world is not seen in the USA media.
I know it is not possible to change all that.
So I quit KIVA .
http://www.lendforpeace.org/index.php is a good alternative, the country is oppressed for 60 years know by the jews and the help of the USA.
The bombs are made in the USA.
Our soldiers are cleaning up the mess of clusterbombing in Lebanon, clusterbombs, made in the USA.
And I say it agian: I have nothing against any american, I disguise the government and those who support the warmongers.
And I say it again: I have nothing against any American, I dislike the government and those who support the warmongers.

ok, i understand a little better what your saying. 

I thought our media was too liberal not right wing. (you must be watching the Fox News Channel    )
SOOOO many of us wish the war never started.

I appologize for calling you ignorant -  how could you be!  We both have a lot in common - I won't loan to the US either !     

[Henry]

Palin Palin Palin -----------weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

[carien]

Bala I understand what you are saying but all those people here on Kiva they just want to help others. If you do not want to loan to US so you don't. But when I look at my self why is my favourite country to lend  Lebanon? That is because I married a Lebanese and I know the country better than the others so I can understand why people from the US want to help them own people. I do exact the same. People here they know that wars are terrible and never right I only fail to see what that has to do with Kiva You made your point but every point have more sides than one.Like you I hope that one day there will be no wars and that there may come peace in the Middle East. Perhaps we can't help the whole world however every step we make is one.

May peace be upon you

Carine

[Jill]

I wouldn’t have wanted censorship, and I wouldn’t have wanted personal attacks.  But I very much did want and had hoped for public statements, especially by the moderators who are constantly deciding what is acceptable and what is not at KivaFriends, but also, statements from some of the active and especially veteran members of the Forum, something to the effect of “Not in Our Forum.”


It’s one thing to condemn the immoral actions of governments and even the silence and apparent acquiescence of large numbers of the citizenry of those countries in the face of those actions.  I get terrifically angry, disillusioned, and more than anything, deeply saddened, myself, when I hear of various acts committed by my own country's government and by Israel's, among others. 


But for me, it’s quite another thing to broadbrush paint entire groups of people, whether of a similar religion, skin color, ethnic or national origin, sexual orientation or whatever as though all people were alike and could be “known” and judged, based merely on some physical attribute or some other classificatory parameter over which they had little or no control or that tells nothing of what is in their hearts or how they, as individuals, conduct their lives.

I really really wish you guys had spoken up. I know of many of the reasons why people would choose not to, including, probably, “the less said the better.” 

In connection with that explanation, and in connection with a whole lot of other things, I’d ask you to watch the five minute video that follows that’s about a story I first learned about in the early 90’s.  I'd actually taped a segment off Charles Kuralt's CBS Sunday Morning show that highlighted it.  I was then able to use it as a teaching tool with elementary and junior high school kids.  The original segment was incredibly powerful.   A brick that had been thrown through a child's bedroom window just missed the pillow where the kid lay sleeping, maybe by inches.   I felt that there was a lesson in it for all of us, and that it didn't matter one whit which group was being attacked "this week."


http://www.pbs.org/niot/

http://www.pbs.org/niot/about/niot1.html


The last link is one I chanced on, this morning, when a particular quote came to mind, because of all this, and I wanted to re-read it and understand its origins.
http://www.history.ucsb.edu/faculty/marcuse/niem.htm

Jill

I’d actually started to write Bala a personal message to try to keep this from being perpetuated any further on the Forum’s pages.  But since a particular sentiment now stands written, then referenced,  a total of five times, already,  the thought occurred to me that I didn’t want people coming to “my” Forum, seeing those lines, and then thinking that nobody here really very much cared.

[Diane R]

In partial response, I'd like everyone to know that the moderating team is actively working on an expanded set of "Guiding Principles" for posting at KivaFriends, based on earlier suggestions made by RichardF, and we expect to post something very soon.  Many of the concerns you raise are addressed there, and if we all would read and reread these principles, and follow them in our hearts and in our conversations and in our posts, the forum, and the world, would be a much better place.


hoping to post something soon,
--Diane.
(not a proponent of "the less said, the better", as you probably already know)

[Mona]

Wonderful video! Thank you so much for sharing, Jill!  And you are so right in what you say - it is always the indiviual and not "the" country, "the" population or "the" religion that decides which way we are to follow, the way of hatred or the way of love and peace.

Best wishes,
Mona

[Wood Fairy Glenda]

I, too, loved the video, Jill.
....and I just want to say that I hope you stick with KivaFriends  for a long time.  A mutual KivaFriend, in a PM, called you "The Conscience of Kiva Friends." Keep at it, Jill.  We need you.

[AccountAbility]

Since this thread is moving toward generalizations, I will throw in my 2 cents.  

Many participants here use the "show most recent posts" link to keep up with the various conversations.  Others use the link called "List of Recent Threads with unread posts".  (I personally prefer the latter.)

When the number of posts not directly relating to Kiva and its work toward alleviating poverty--as useful or important as these issues might be in the wider world-- become so numerous that they totally overwhelm Kiva related topics on these lists, then I think this forum has significantly suffered.  

Generally, this has happened only a couple of times when a number of side topics were causing significant volumes at the same time.  I would conclude from this that Kiva Friends is by and large a civil group that largely keeps on topic.  So it shouldn't take a lot of "policing" to keep it that way.

Anyway, that is just my personal opinion.

Dan

[Kay]

That's a wonderful lesson, Jill.

[gill]

I probably shouldn't be posting this, as it's only going to fall on deaf ears and fan the flames, but I'm going to anyway, seeing as how I was mentioned in the OP and usually try to respond when addressed. Also, I'm annoyed. If the forum mods decide it's not worth keeping such a...'discussion' going, and delete/move/whatever this post, that's fine and I understand completely.

Now then. Bala:

It's obvious you have serious grievances with the US, and that's fine. I don't agree with several of your points, but they're your opinions and you're welcome to them. However, keep in mind that it's pretty hard to believe your claim that you're NOT ignorant when you say things like, "Destroyng the Palestine people is the work of jews". I mean, maybe it's just translation errors (and since English apparently isn't your first language, I'm hoping that's all it is) and maybe I'm just misunderstanding you (please correct me if I am), but saying "the country is oppressed for 60 years know by the jews" and then telling me to 'learn history' is irony at its finest/worst.

Not that it'll matter to you, but I made a loan to a Palestinian man a week ago, and--GASP!--I'm also a conservative-temple-belonging Jew! Believe it or not, there aren't any secret meetings where us Jews get together and plot to take over the world. We also don't poison wells, cause the plague, or use the blood of Christian babies for our secret rituals  . Most of us (I'd say the majority, but obviously I can't speak for everyone), support both Israel in its right to exist and the Palestinians for their right to their own country and chances at happiness. The situation between Palestine and Israel is heartbreaking, and I hope desperately that the two sides can somehow, some day, have peace instead of war. My Palestinian loan was a feeble attempt at dragging that day closer.

People feel strongly about the Palestine/Israel issue, as well as the issue of American policy. But a forum thread dedicated to discussion of whether or not borrowers from the USA belong on Kiva, is really NOT the place to blame those evil Jews for every ounce of suffering in the Middle East.

[Diane R]

As promised, the moderating team has posted a set of proposed KivaFriends Guiding Principles, and would appreciate your thoughts and comments.  We hope the existence of a set of such principles for which there is a community consensus will help guide new and experienced participants alike.  Thanks.

Principles:  http://www.kivafriends.org/index.php/topic,4137.0.html
Discussion thread:  http://www.kivafriends.org/index.php/topic,4136.0.html

--Diane, for the moderating team.