Kiva's Lessons

[Guest]

.

[Agent001]

Hi all,

Some people here may know me for a couple of initiatives I run, either intersected or inspired in part by Kiva's work. I am about to set off for a 1 yr Masters at Oxford as a Skoll Scholar in Social Entrepreneurship - focused on exactly how we can take the lessons from these types of social innovations and institutions, multiply them, find new ones, make them stick, and generally create the world so many of us are working towards.

I would love to pick your brains. What lessons are there to be taken from Kiva and their unbelievable success at a systemic level. I hope to apply this to my own projects, as well as to my impending studies and interactions with many of the world's most interesting young minds focused on social change:

1) Why do you love Kiva? Most particularly, what makes it stick, why do you come back and why do you tell your friends?
2) Specifically, how does Kiva empower YOU to be a part of its success and growth?
3) What has Kiva done wrong along the way?
4) What is the ONE other project or issue that the world should know about and support?

These answers are intended to be fairly generic in that they can be applied to other young organizations trying to make a change - but feel free to be Kiva specific if that best illustrates your point. Many thanks, and hopefully a few people have the time for this - I think these are valuable lessons to be shared and in many ways you are the people best placed to share them!

Best,

Shawn Smith
www.educationgeneration
www.globalafc.org

[David2051]

Hmm, I guess I'll be the first to jump in here.  I think Kiva is so successful because the illusion they so carefully portrait is so attractive to so many people.  I think the reality doesn't quite match the illusion, but it comes close enough to hook people in.

The illusion of Kiva, I think, is that Kiva is a vehicle whereby they enable us to do good things in the world. i.e. that we are the customer of Kiva.  That they have created this system so that we can do positive things in the world. 

After making a couple hundred loans on Kiva, I have come to the conclusion that Kiva's real goal is to do great things in the world on their own - and that they do it with our money.  Based on their actions, I would say that Kiva sees itself as a partner of the MFIs and the MFIs are Kiva's customer.  The Kiva lenders are just a source of money who are addicted to the illusion; we enable Kiva to reach its goals.

While I think the goal acted out is not the goal proclaimed, there is enough there to be able to choose to believe the illusion, and it is attractive enough to people who want to make a positive change in the world that we lenders get hooked on it.

[Jan & John]

1) Why do you love Kiva? Most particularly, what makes it stick, why do you come back and why do you tell your friends?
I love Kiva because I believe in the advertising... "Loans that change lives".  I don't expect perfection.  I don't expect we can change the lives of everyone in the world.  But every day, I can find one more person whose life can be made more comfortable if I lend just $25.  I keep coming back because it feels so darn good!

2) Specifically, how does Kiva empower YOU to be a part of its success and growth?
I have always been careful with our charitable donations.  I don't really consider it a donation because I know deep down inside that most of my money will be returned for me to use again.  Kiva doesn't 'guarantee' a return but I am confident enough to convince my friends Kiva is a great idea.

3) What has Kiva done wrong along the way?
Kiva, in the past, did not give enough priority to answering lenders needs.  For two years, every time I sent a question to Kiva CS, I got that rote answer telling me how busy they were and what the three most asked questions were.   I always had that feeling of "I'm not that important to them".  They have changed the wording now and periodically send out a survey asking how fast they answered and whether I got the answer I wanted.  I just still have that feeling that they only got around to it because of complaints and not because they cared or gave it any real priority.
And they could sure get more actual donations from me if they could work out the difficulties around tax receipts for other countries, but I think out of US tax receipting is probably more trouble than it would be worth to them.

4) What is the ONE other project or issue that the world should know about and support?
Well, of course, I have to (and do) tell the world about Education Generation.  We believe in education.  We are proud to be able to help give scholarships to deserving young people who otherwise would not have a chance to continue with their schooling. 

all the best to you, Shawn in your upcoming year...
jan

[Agent001]

Thanks folks - useful and interesting on both counts! David, interested to understand if you still believe the platform worthy of your time even if Kiva hasn't lived up to your original expectations. Do you still lend? Is it largely a case of Kiva simply being more responsive to their lenders, or that Kiva is not, or no longer acting as a neutral platform and you believe they are the real actor and taking it for granted that individual contributors provide the financial engine?

[David2051]

David, interested to understand if you still believe the platform worthy of your time even if Kiva hasn't lived up to your original expectations. Do you still lend? Is it largely a case of Kiva simply being more responsive to their lenders, or that Kiva is not, or no longer acting as a neutral platform and you believe they are the real actor and taking it for granted that individual contributors provide the financial engine?

I do still lend.  I still feel like the positives outweigh the negatives a bit.

The picture portrayed is that Kiva is this platform that has been created so that lenders can make a difference in the world.  i.e. Kiva is working for us, enabling us to do good things. 

The reality as I see it is that we are enabling Kiva to do what they want, to accomplish their goals, by providing an unlimited stream of money.  Basically no loan goes unfunded on Kiva.  They know that they can tilt the system 100% in the MFIs favor, against the best interests of the lenders, and the money keeps rolling in.   Individual lenders may get burnt and and take what is left of their money elsewhere, but another lender seems always ready to pick up the slack. 

I think Kiva does whatever it wants to do regardless of what is in the best interest of lenders and it is able to do this and get away with it because there are always lenders willing to put in money towards a good cause.  Most of these lenders probably don't know when the system is stacked against them because they don't have the information needed.

[TheTatiana]

1) Why do you love Kiva? Most particularly, what makes it stick, why do you come back and why do you tell your friends?

The best thing about kiva is the person-to-person connection with individuals in other parts of the world whom I can help.  It shows us in a visceral way the reality that we're all one big human family.  I believe initiatives like this can change the world in the long run, because it changes our hearts towards each other and makes it matter to us what happens in far-flung parts of the globe.

2) Specifically, how does Kiva empower YOU to be a part of its success and growth?

I'm still paused in my lending because of the cockfighting thing.  kiva's lack of concern for the lender experience has generally alienated me over time, as well.  I still hope some kiva competitor will improve on kiva.  That's what I'm waiting for.  I've given up thinking the people at kiva will change.

3) What has Kiva done wrong along the way?

Lack of concern for MFI fraud.  Lack of communications to the lenders.  Refusing to admit when money had been stolen from us for months after the fact.  Leaving the Mifex fiasco with barely any pursuit of getting back the $500k of their lenders' money that they lost.  Lack of concern for the promotion of horrific animal cruelty by supporting cockfighting loans.  Lack of concern for lenders' wishes on currency risk.  Lack of strong ethic separating kiva's money from lender's money, as evidenced by their attempt to confiscate all the money in idle accounts.  Horray for the law winning that one for us.  Lack of concern for lenders' need to read a decently translated loan request, despite having many potential volunteers who were never contacted to help.  Refusal to learn the lesson that the lenders need communication and information despite us repeatedly telling them for years.   

4) What is the ONE other project or issue that the world should know about and support?
Central Asian Institute is my favorite.

[Agent001]

Thanks for the input - its intriguing to see some thought about the cockfighting issue again. I was intrigued by Kiva's choice to let lender actions dictate what would gain support as in reality, if you don't like it, don't lend to it. I also felt it a bit of an abdication of responsibility as we all know that that loan will get funded no matter what, and some lenders won't even read for detail - but again, is that Kiva's responsibility?

At any rate, I think the focus on user experience is a valuable lesson, as even the steady wave of support Kiva receives can never be taken for granted and it must be remembered that it is the individual, and their money, that makes this work. In speaking with the Kiva team I feel like I should emphasize that they spend a lot of time thinking about their lenders, even if it doesn't always feel like it translates!

Our organization maintains a substantial portfolio at Kiva and issues like untranslated profiles, currency and MFI risk, and continued changes that don't ALWAYS seem to have lender best interests in mind definitely register for us as well.

Best for now,

Shawn

[Dagfinn]

Hello Shawn, I am happy to give you my one drop of water and I hope you will soon have a full glass!

1) Why do you love Kiva? Most particularly, what makes it stick, why do you come back and why do you tell your friends?

First let me rephrase the question; Why did you love Kiva and why did you tell your friends?  I loved Kiva for their promise to do person to person lending, to be fully transparent and to not be in it for business but as a movement; something that made an exact match to my blue eyes.

What makes it stick, partially that is as they now have lost most of my monthly budget allotted to charity, is that I feel a bond towards some very decent individuals among its lender base that still honour the ideals Kiva first sold us.

Second, I am able to reach individuals in areas I do not myself have personal connections to reach out to but feel strongly for. So I come back to not let those people down.

I told my friends as I wanted to do my very best aid that movement that based its work on a set ethical standard that I highly respected. 

2) Specifically, how does Kiva empower YOU to be a part of its success and growth?

Again they did; in the past by connecting me to entrepreneurs and lenders making a community, a movement.  Together we formed a battle group for solving a core issue among people on this planet.

3) What has Kiva done wrong along the way?

Sold out on its ideals they initially presented us with basically, having become a Bushbrain business were false advertising and disrespect to its customer base have become the norm.  Having experienced that the American cancer of “bigger is better” also works when it comes to social responsibility so far their greed for own success has put the entrepreneurs at third place and their core lender base fourth.

4) What is the ONE other project or issue that the world should know about and support?

Street children everywhere, like Doroga K Domy in Odesa but numerous others as well.


So for me MyC4.com have grown on me as they deliver true person to person lending – even though they lack a lot that partially Kiva have they appear as true and sincere in their work.

All the best with your studies Shawn.  If it is within your scope my one question to you is would Kiva become as successful if they stuck to their original ideals?

Be well, Dagfinn A

[JoanW]

1) Why do you love Kiva? Most particularly, what makes it stick, why do you come back and why do you tell your friends?

Originally, I was hooked because for less than the price of a week's worth of coffee I could help a specific person where it would actually make a real difference in their everyday life. I saw it as a way to help Dionisio the bus driver or Salif the electronics dealer without knowing (or caring) about the politics involved. Let the governments of the world do what they are going to do - I can't impact my government anymore than they can change theirs. What I can do is offer a little assistance. To me it is important that this is a loan not a donation. I see on a daily basis the psychological difference a handout makes to an individuals sense of empowerment.

Now I understand that the loan will be (or 'was' in many cases) funded with or without me. I understand that I am really sending money to an MFI somewhere to help them do their job and provide services to the individual requesting the loan. I am struggling with that because for me it was always all about the individual connection with another person.  Like Dagfinn said - Kiva was marketed as a movement. I have stopped adding new money, but have not gotten to the point of drawing out the money that is in the system. I also no longer tell my friends about Kiva.

2) Specifically, how does Kiva empower YOU to be a part of its success and growth?

Kiva doesn't. I used to think that Kiva & I were partners in creating change in the world. Now the impression I get from Kiva is that if I don't like something I'm free to move on kind of like "there's the door ->"...and there are plenty more who will drink the Kool-aid new lenders who will gladly pick up where I left off. My fear for Kiva is what happens when they run out of new lenders and the old ones found other places that are more consistent with their values?

3) What has Kiva done wrong along the way?

Instead of focusing on what Kiva has done wrong, let me change the question around a bit - what lessons should we learn from Kiva?

• Say what you mean & mean what you say - I look back at the things that people have complained about Kiva...this would have covered most them.
• You can't be everything to everyone - We all know this, but sometimes organizations seem to forget. They move outside their scope and try to take on other projects. Sometimes it works, but most of the time it doesn't.
• Do what is right because it is the right thing to do, not because someone is watching.  - This one comes from things like the converting of abandoned accounts. This one really shook my belief in the integrity of the people making decisions at Kiva.

4) What is the ONE other project or issue that the world should know about and support?
I have a number of issues I care passionately about - but they are not of interest on a global scale (US specific).

[Unilove]

1) Why do you love Kiva? Most particularly, what makes it stick, why do you come back and why do you tell your friends?

Interesting to address this survey to those that ‘love’ Kiva.  While there are many true cheerleaders of Kiva, it is those that criticize that I think care even more.  They want improvements and integrity and transparency.  What makes Kiva stick?  The goals and concept, ease of use, and the return of investment that enables re-investing. 

For me there were two true hooks: KivaFriends.org and KivaFellows.  KivaFriends.org is a place where passionate and intelligent people have welcomed new lenders, provide support and information, and strive to create a true virtual community.  Kiva’s site was too detached, but they have made greater efforts to engage with more posts, information, and activities.  KivaFellows has brought the ‘in the field’ and ‘on the ground’ stories that convey information, individuals truths, and a perspective from amazing young people that make the Kiva experience 3-dimensional and vivid.  I tell my friends the above and they can make up their own minds.

2) Specifically, how does Kiva empower YOU to be a part of its success and growth?
We lenders can invest, advocate, and participate.  We are given a Liaison, a monthly community call, stats and charts, and more honesty in disseminated information than previously.

3) What has Kiva done wrong along the way?
This KivaFriends.org board has many posts on the many discovered inadequacies and deficiencies of Kiva.  Again, this is because the lenders are passionate and care enough to ‘criticize.’  May it always be the case…

4) What is the ONE other project or issue that the world should know about and support?
Sadly, there are just too many in the world.  Lack of basics: clean water, shelter, food, healthcare, no safety from murder or rape, or a lack of basic human rights. 

What can one person do?  Something.  Anything.  But do it.

[Agent001]

Thanks for taking the time to write all of this - I'm mid-settling in stage at Oxford right now as well as laid out with a nasty case of the flu, sorry about the lack of response!

[TheTatiana]

Shawn, I hope you get better quickly from the flu!  Take good care of yourself.

Since you responded to the content of my earlier post about cockfighting, I am moved to explain a bit further.  Some activities that kiva loans support I don't personally feel the need to put my money in the ring for.  Those include things like off-license liquor stores, which suck up money from the community that could be put to better use, in my opinion.  I think they serve to move poor communities in a negative rather than positive direction.  However, I feel about those businesses that people have their different choices and I know it's not my stewardship (thank goodness) to make those choices for them.  So I simply pick other loans to support.  Live and let live. 

On the other hand there are things so pernicious, so evil, and so destructive that I would not want to have anything at all to do with any organization that promotes them.  These things include many of the areas kiva rightly avoids altogether like prostitution, slavery, or drug trafficking.  I feel deeply that the horrendous animal cruelty involved in dog fighting or cock fighting counts in this group.  Because kiva has looked at what happens in cock fighting and turned away, decided it was one of those live-and-let-live things, I'm just appalled and want nothing to do with the whole organization anymore.  To me it's as though we found that some kiva loans were going to the child kidnapping and slavery business, and kiva said "oh well you know those people are just like that.  It's a cultural thing.  Child kidnapping and slavery is part of their culture and it would be rude of us westerners to object."  It's exactly like that, to me, which leads me to want nothing whatsoever to do with kiva anymore.  I hope that makes it more understandable why I choose as I do.

[Agent001]

Hello,

I'm finding a lot of this information fascinating. From the point that addressing the KivaFriends forum as people that love Kiva being perhaps a bit short-sighted/naive, to the points above about cockfighting. On the cockfighting question I tend to believe Kiva has some obligations to make a few judgement calls on things that may strictly be "legal" - I imagine from their point of view it is a slippery slope and leaves a LOT up for debate in terms of who we are to dictate what is an acceptable way to try to claw your way out of poverty, and what is not (ie we've had members in our organization refuse to lend to tax drivers due to environmental considerations...which seems a tough sell to me when people are simply trying to do the best they can in supporting their families and don't have the luxury of choice that we do as to how they do it). That said, I think there is a line somewhere, and for me cockfighting fell on the wrong side of it - from there it is more blurry though. I think at the VERY minimum they can take a conservative screen and not support things that are illegal in either the country the loan is in, or in the US.

I am hoping to take some of the lessons of Kiva and apply them not just to www.educationgeneration.org, but more widely to crowdfunded initiatives facilitating one to one connections (and watching the current debate on Kiva's process with interest - a conversation had long ago in our organization re: our support of Kiva).

Do others find Kiva fellows to have the same kind of "hook" factor? Is it important to hear those real stories from the field, and have a more tangible connection in that way? If so - what is it specifically that orgs should focus on?

Is Kivafriends possible to duplicate in your mind, or is this community a rare wellspring more connected with Kiva itself than the concept of a connected donor community? Is a critical mass needed (several organizations have started forums just to watch them slowly die as there is not enough interest).

Intriguing stuff! I was hoping to see a pattern in Kiva users having an interest in other crowdfunded, or community supported projects, but it seems from preliminary chats that the interests outside Kiva are as varied for this crowd as any typical group!

Cheers,

Shawn

[Agent001]

All the best with your studies Shawn.  If it is within your scope my one question to you is would Kiva become as successful if they stuck to their original ideals?

Could you possibly expand on this one? I think it's an interesting jumping off point for further thought..

[Dottie b]

Is Kivafriends possible to duplicate in your mind, or is this community a rare wellspring more connected with Kiva itself than the concept of a connected donor community? Is a critical mass needed (several organizations have started forums just to watch them slowly die as there is not enough interest).

Intriguing stuff! I was hoping to see a pattern in Kiva users having an interest in other crowdfunded, or community supported projects, but it seems from preliminary chats that the interests outside Kiva are as varied for this crowd as any typical group!

Shawn

There is a thread on thie forum for Kivafriends who also fund DonorsChoose, another "crowdfunded" organization (geez, I hate that word! Maybe because I resist crowds and being considered a part of one!)

[Jan & John]

Hello,

I'm finding a lot of this information fascinating. From the point that addressing the KivaFriends forum as people that love Kiva being perhaps a bit short-sighted/naive, to the points above about cockfighting. On the cockfighting question I tend to believe Kiva has some obligations to make a few judgement calls on things that may strictly be "legal" - I imagine from their point of view it is a slippery slope and leaves a LOT up for debate in terms of who we are to dictate what is an acceptable way to try to claw your way out of poverty, and what is not (ie we've had members in our organization refuse to lend to tax drivers due to environmental considerations...which seems a tough sell to me when people are simply trying to do the best they can in supporting their families and don't have the luxury of choice that we do as to how they do it). That said, I think there is a line somewhere, and for me cockfighting fell on the wrong side of it - from there it is more blurry though. I think at the VERY minimum they can take a conservative screen and not support things that are illegal in either the country the loan is in, or in the US.

I think/hope that Kiva learned a lesson from the cockfighting uproar.  We certainly disagreed where they drew their line officially, but I certainly haven't seen signs of any new loans in that area.  I personally am prepared to put this one in the past unless it rears its ugly head again.

I am hoping to take some of the lessons of Kiva and apply them not just to www.educationgeneration.org, but more widely to crowdfunded initiatives facilitating one to one connections (and watching the current debate on Kiva's process with interest - a conversation had long ago in our organization re: our support of Kiva).

Do others find Kiva fellows to have the same kind of "hook" factor? Is it important to hear those real stories from the field, and have a more tangible connection in that way? If so - what is it specifically that orgs should focus on?

Yes - I will quite often read the Kiva Fellows blogs long before coming here to KF.  The sharing of the insights of people willing to go and be there in our place, checking to see that our money is going where it should, experiencing the different cultures and reasons why people need a hand up, these are very important to the connection I feel to the borrowers. 

I was so glad to read the blog from Peru and actually see the students that I helped through Education Generation.  The connection is all important.   This part is getting more difficult as we learn how Kiva 'really' works.  But understanding the mechanics, I can still feel connected because these are real people we as a group (Kiva, MFI's and lenders together) are trying to help.

Is Kivafriends possible to duplicate in your mind, or is this community a rare wellspring more connected with Kiva itself than the concept of a connected donor community? Is a critical mass needed (several organizations have started forums just to watch them slowly die as there is not enough interest).

Intriguing stuff! I was hoping to see a pattern in Kiva users having an interest in other crowdfunded, or community supported projects, but it seems from preliminary chats that the interests outside Kiva are as varied for this crowd as any typical group!

Cheers,

Shawn

I think Kiva is unique.  And Kiva Friends is the first (and only) forum I have ever joined.

Hoping your studies go well...
-jan-

[Agent001]

Thanks! I have noted the intensive support for DonorsChoose projects as well - I was more digging at what makes THIS community, the online world of Kivafriends so tight, as many organizations truly struggle with creating a sense of community among their donor (or in this case lender) base.

Many a Kivafriend has been instrumental in getting www.educationgeneration.org (thank you!) off the ground as well, so there is definitely a community funding trend (if that term works better!).

Shawn

PS Just noted your input as well, thanks Jan...

[Dottie b]

Thanks! I have noted the intensive support for DonorsChoose projects as well - I was more digging at what makes THIS community, the online world of Kivafriends so tight, as many organizations truly struggle with creating a sense of community among their donor (or in this case lender) base.

Ah, that may be the difference! Kiva did not create KivaFriends - it was started by a donor. (Actually I don't know the history. If it was started by a small group, how did they get togther? If it was started by one person, how did others hear of it?) But anyway, participants know that we can speak freely and that Kiva is not manipulating it. After we'd been around awhile, Kiva did start referencing it on their site, and they obviously take part in some of our discussions.

I recall that the thread about guessing when we'd reach $100 million in loans was started by a Kiva staffer and the result was I was not excited. I think it would have been different had it been started by a KivaFriend. But overall, I think Kiva does a pretty good job of using KF as a way of keeping an ear to the ground while not overdoing the PR.

Dottie B

[RichardF]

Welcome to Kiva Friends

This discussion forum was set up to discuss all things about Kiva.org, including microfinancing and fundraising. Don't know what Kiva is? [gasp] Where have you been?! See the New to Kiva? thread for info, or just visit kiva.org

If you haven't registered yet, please do! Registration is quick and pretty hassle-free in terms of how much info you have to enter. Once you've registered, there are a lot more options you can add into your profile. Click the profile link above and update what info you want to display (it's all optional, by the way). You can add things like links to your Kiva.org lender page, personal web site, additional contact info, etc.

There aren't many rules here. I trust that everyone is mature enough to discuss our mutual interest and participation in the Kiva organization without going over the edge. Talk to others with the courtesy and respect you'd expect in return and we'll all be fine.

Mobile users. This site is mobile phone compatible! Punch in the URL on your cellphone or mobile device and you'll get a mobile friendly version where you can read messages and access your account.

Special thanks to the KivaLoans Yahoo Group, Julia, Ramon and everyone else that submitted links or sent words of encouragement for this quick little project. And of course thanks to Kiva for existing and what they're doing.

If you have any problems or questions, feel free to drop me a private message on here or just post it to the board.

Spread the word. Lets see how this goes....

[Dottie b]

Shawn, KivaFriends also has a large pool of potential members -- over 500,000 people have lent money! How many nonprofits have that many donors?

About ten percent of Kiva lenders are KF members, and only about 50 of them post regularly. That's enough to create a good sense of community, but that's 50 out of 500,000! (I'm not counting the KF guests, who outnumber members about 3 to 1, because they don't participate in the "community building," at least not until they join.)

In addition, there is a lot about Kiva that makes it a good hobby. I mean, how many people spend hours perusing the Red Cross web site?  But the people and places we see on Kiva are fascinating. I've learned a a lot and have gone on to read more about microfinancing.

As far as what we think of Kiva, I think that rather then expect a lot of folks to answer your questions, just review the posts on the forum. It's all here!

Dottie B

[Unilove]

In addition, there is a lot about Kiva that makes it a good hobby. I mean, how many people spend hours perusing the Red Cross web site?  But the people and places we see on Kiva are fascinating. I've learned a a lot and have gone on to read more about microfinancing.

Dottie B

Agreed!  When I first came here, it was an amazing discovery of a wealth of information and such passionate discussions!  Every time I came here, I learned something new.  And, topics here inspired me to read more online to get better informed.

Come to think of it, this is the only forum in a long time I have been so involved with.  Lastly, I also think that there is a maturity level here that often, on other forums, dissolves into trolling, cursing, and text-speak (how r u? c u l8r).

[AccountAbility]

Over the years I have participated in any number of "user groups" mostly in conjunction with commercial software programs.  The relationship was almost independent, although they usually were considered an asset to the company so they supported and even coordinated events for the users group. 

But other times the user group acted more like a union in terms of asserting the collective wishes of the users--sometimes in an almost adversarial way.  But in the final analysis, these were users who were electing to stay.  If they felt bad enough about the software they just jumped ship and then they weren't users any more.

Kiva Friends is in many respects like that (although a Kiva Friend does not actually have to "use" Kiva).  Sometimes user's are very supportive of features, improvements, customer support etc.   Other times user's wishes get strident or even demanding, but always within the context of still affirming its use.

It is inevitable that some users (er, Kiva Friends) will jump ship and just plain leave.  But there is pretty solid staying power in the community as they wrestle in most cases over what is in the best long term interests of the borrowers.

Dan