Kiva in October 2009 Business Week

[Guest]

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[tomviolence]

http://www.businessweek.com/managing/content/oct2009/ca20091020_373698.htm

Kiva's Cautionary Social-Entrepreneurship Tale
Charges of using misleading marketing are among the problems faced by the troubled microlending site

Ooo  EEeeeee

[Diane R]

The third main point in the brief article was especially thoughtfully put:

3. Transparency and social media: One of the remarkable things about both Kiva controversies is that they occurred only because of Kiva's openness. Its support for kivafriends.org has helped build a platform for unhappy Kiva lenders. The proof points that shattered the person-to-person illusion were possible only because of Kiva's largely unique sharing of raw data. It remains to be seen whether the goodwill Kiva accumulated via these strategies will help it weather a storm of bad PR, or if this transparent approach ultimately hurts Kiva because the perceived gap between what users thought of Kiva and actual practice is all the greater. Any organization that pledges itself to transparency and user conversations without full commitment is likely to find those tools turned against it.

I have to say, though... I don't think of kivafriends.org as a "platform for unhappy Kiva lenders".  I think there is a lot of displeasure and grumbling expressed here, but it's mixed with the very real truth that we lenders still want to support microfinance, and Kiva gives us an opportunity to do that in a more simple way than many of the other sites I've explored (YMMV as we used to say in usenet newsgroups ("Your Mileage May Vary").  I think of KF more as a family of folks who are perceptive and want things to go REALLY well, so we feel more free to point out the blemishes and our favorite remedies for removing them.  I'm not all that good at analogies like this, though, so I'll leave it to others to be more creative and effective in saying what I've just tried to say.

I'm still very involved with Kiva and KivaFriends, even through my disappointments and discouragements, and I know many others here are also.  The past year has been a tumultuous one for Kiva, and I have to say the media focus hasn't really helped.  Case in point: the NPR piece which aired a couple weeks ago.  The reporter who put together the piece spent NINETY MINUTES with me, interviewing me at length about my reasons for participating through Kiva, and I have to say it was a *great* conversation -- some ups, some downs, more ups again.  We spoke about almost every issue being bandied about this year, and I felt very good afterwards, hoping I could offer a rational yet eyes-wide-open perspective on several topics from my somewhat unique perspective as a lender.  However, the reporter was contacted afterwards about the "Unhappy Kiva Lenders" team, and chose to also interview its founder -- which is of course the reporter's prerogative and honestly her duty.  Her piece aired focusing on the concerns of the unhappy lenders; not a single reference to the 90 minutes I spent with the reporter made it into her piece.  The lack of an alternate perspective to balance things out made me very sad -- I had no real need to hear myself on a radio piece, but I *did* think it was important to have some other viewpoints heard, and they were not.  This sort of media coverage is a self-fulfilling thing: if all people hear about Kiva is its negatives and its blemishes, they're more likely to see only those things, and not the good that I know is there... and can be done better.

I stick around because I believe Kiva can be better.  I have hope.

--Diane.

[waywardcats]

The third main point in the brief article was especially thoughtfully put:

I have to say, though... I don't think of kivafriends.org as a "platform for unhappy Kiva lenders".  I think there is a lot of displeasure and grumbling expressed here, but it's mixed with the very real truth that we lenders still want to support microfinance, and Kiva gives us an opportunity to do that in a more simple way than many of the other sites I've explored (YMMV as we used to say in usenet newsgroups ("Your Mileage May Vary").  I think of KF more as a family of folks who are perceptive and want things to go REALLY well, so we feel more free to point out the blemishes and our favorite remedies for removing them.  I'm not all that good at analogies like this, though, so I'll leave it to others to be more creative and effective in saying what I've just tried to say.

I read this just slightly differently than you do Diane.  I agree with what you say here, however, I see his point slightly differently.  What I hear the author saying here

One of the remarkable things about both Kiva controversies is that they occurred only because of Kiva's openness. Its support for kivafriends.org has helped build a platform for unhappy Kiva lenders. The proof points that shattered the person-to-person illusion were possible only because of Kiva's largely unique sharing of raw data.

is that because of the level of engagement with Kiva at kivafriends.org and the fact that we felt a particularly strong personal connection to Kiva we may have strong emotional reaction when the reality is made plain.  Shattered illusions are difficult for all of us, and because we all have been personally involved in working with Kiva to help them grow that I think many feel personally betrayed, perhaps even exploited when they come to understand the truth. 

I agree with you that we are "a family of folks who are perceptive and want things to go REALLY well, so we feel more free to point out the blemishes and our favorite remedies for removing them".  However, lately I have perceived that kivafriends feel less and less like their suggestions are being heard by Kiva, and that too contributes to a sense of frustration.  I think that frustration from those on the outside looking in to kivafriends may not look a whole lot different than unhappy lenders.

I'm still very involved with Kiva and KivaFriends, even through my disappointments and discouragements, and I know many others here are also.  The past year has been a tumultuous one for Kiva, and I have to say the media focus hasn't really helped.  Case in point: the NPR piece which aired a couple weeks ago.  The reporter who put together the piece spent NINETY MINUTES with me, interviewing me at length about my reasons for participating through Kiva, and I have to say it was a *great* conversation -- some ups, some downs, more ups again.  We spoke about almost every issue being bandied about this year, and I felt very good afterwards, hoping I could offer a rational yet eyes-wide-open perspective on several topics from my somewhat unique perspective as a lender.  However, the reporter was contacted afterwards about the "Unhappy Kiva Lenders" team, and chose to also interview its founder -- which is of course the reporter's prerogative and honestly her duty.  Her piece aired focusing on the concerns of the unhappy lenders; not a single reference to the 90 minutes I spent with the reporter made it into her piece.  The lack of an alternate perspective to balance things out made me very sad -- I had no real need to hear myself on a radio piece, but I *did* think it was important to have some other viewpoints heard, and they were not.  This sort of media coverage is a self-fulfilling thing: if all people hear about Kiva is its negatives and its blemishes, they're more likely to see only those things, and not the good that I know is there... and can be done better.

I stick around because I believe Kiva can be better.  I have hope.

--Diane.

Hear, hear!!        I am with you entirely.  I will continue to lend because I believe that whatever the nuts and bolts have to be that Kiva still helps me to support individuals who just need a helping hand.  As long as I can participate in that, that is enough for me.

-Kerry-

[tomviolence]

I am reminded of the quote: "If you like laws and sausages, you should never watch either one being made.", as transparency might disillusion you, but might also allow you to understand and appreciate the process better. Myself, and perhaps others here, don't want the fairy tale, we want accurate, honest, forthcoming information about how the process which we might have thousands of dollars at stake in is being run.

The whole person to person thing is not as important to me as so other things, most especially the quote by Matt regarding expiring loans. That was the point where I felt my vision and Kiva's had hit the kinda fork in the road that leads to complete parting.

Educated, aware and reciprocally involved people would seem to be the path to growth. I am not sure Kiva agrees.

Since there seems to be an either/or decision here, I would much rather have the people at the end of this process succeed, the borrowers, than Kiva. My money is going to Microplace, which funds many of the same MFI's.

[JohnR]

I'm with you, Diane.

I've seen, over the years, a steady line of people (usually entertainers, but it could be anyone) elevated out of obscurity by us, the public, turned into celebrities, adored, and then mercilessly ripped apart.  We project our own fantasies onto them, then tear them apart when they can't live up to our expectations.  It seems like partly betrayal (even though they never promised us anything) and partly a strange delight in watching the mighty fall.  We elevate them, then mercilessly pull them down for having the effrontery of being above our level.  It seems to me that Kiva is going through this now.  Some survive the process and some don't.

I'm aware of Kiva's shortcomings and I've vented my frustration here more than once.  The thing that gets them into the most trouble is their inability to effectively communicate with the lenders.  It opens the door to a lot of speculation, which has a tendency to turn into "truth" in the absence of rebuttal.  And it also drives a lot of us to KivaFriends to try to get an understanding of what Kiva's latest move is and what it means.  (I never go to Kiva's website to find out what they're doing, I always come straight here.)

Friends try to keep each other on track.  When a person sees a friend straying he points it out and tries to guide the friend back onto the path.  I've seen a lot of that on this site; it's really great.  And a person can get really frustrated with his friend.  To the point where he questions whether the other truly is a friend, or if the other has become a stranger.  But do you know how you can tell for sure if you are still a friend?  When your friend is attacked by others.  Because although friends can sometimes be brutal with each other, no one will tolerate a third party attacking his friend.   When I recently read a blog rant against Kiva on another site my reaction was to get really peed off.   It was in the midst of that anger that I realized, "I'm still a friend of Kiva."

I will continue to re-lend my credits, and I will put fresh money in.  If someone wants to go somewhere else with their microloan money, well I think my signature expresses how I feel about that.

John

[AccountAbility]

What can I say?  So I said it in a comment on the article:

AccountAbility  Oct 23, 2009 3:49 AM GMT
Much of what this author speaks is making mountains out of molehills. The unhappy lenders on Kiva number less than one tenth of 1%-- hardly a groundswell. And the Kiva Friends by and large are supportive of Kiva, although in the interest of transparency are willing to point out Kiva's shortcomings. But most do so with the genuine desire to see Kiva improve. Troubled microlending site?? Get some perspective.

[Jan & John]

there are now 2 comments on that article
...much the same as what I said on the David Roodman article...

I disagree that "...support for kivafriends.org has helped build a platform for unhappy Kiva lenders." We at Kiva Friends are glad Kiva is working on their transparency. Even though we are now more aware of what happens behind the scenes, we are still trying to convince Kiva that their transparency and their ability to communicate with the lenders effectively needs more work. I am even more committed now to continuing to support Kiva while also criticizing from the back seat? hopefully constructively. thanks, jan

It's kind of like my marriage of 42 years... I love the man dearly, but who do you think criticizes him the most...
yep, uh huh. 

jan

[Diane R]

And now there are 3 comments on the article.

 

--Diane.

[Peter S]

I wonder if Matt Flannery's latest tweet (I almost want to call it a cri de couer...) was prompted by the article in Business Week.  That second headline referring to Kiva as "the troubled microlending site" really is a prime example of journalism at its most facile and dimmest...

Other people put us on a pedastel we don't deserve but that doesn't mean u should try to take us down

P

[Jan & John]

I wonder if Matt Flannery's latest tweet (I almost want to call it a cri de couer...) was prompted by the article in Business Week.  That second headline referring to Kiva as "the troubled microlending site" really is a prime example of journalism at its most facile and dimmest...

P

I too felt Matt sounded very defensive... so I replied...

you're on the pedestal for a good reason and need to be careful not to allow the media hype become too one-sided... go get em!

-jan-

[AccountAbility]

Just to link this together, the author [EDIT: Tim Ogden] is the same one engaged in similar somewhat slanted commentary at philanthropyaction.com, which is being discussed in the David Roodman thread here:

http://www.kivafriends.org/index.php/topic,4393.0.html

Dan

EDIT: And also the author of the mostly comprehensive guide thread at:

http://www.kivafriends.org/index.php/topic,4420.0/topicseen.html

[Dagfinn]

After reading this (which also reminds me what a blessing it is to have KivaFriends pointing out so much I else would miss) and making my comment I went to the Kiva page and read what it now says it does.

So much better and definitely a major step in the right direction - our hope for change do pay dividends at times 

- Be well all, Dagfinn A

[Jan & John]

Transparency on Trial? Dennis Whittle from Global Giving weighs in on the debate...

I think we have a collective responsibility to keep pushing the envelope on transparency and authenticity of the experience.

and

I admire how Matt and Premal have responded to the debate over at Kiva. Their response sets an admirable standard for speed and transparency.

-jan- who never quite knows where to post this stuff

[timothyogden]

For the record I'd like to make it clear that:

1) I wrote the piece referenced in this thread but had nothing to do with how it was titled.
2) I originally wrote the piece for Harvard Business and didn't know it was syndicated to Business Week until much later.
3) I do not support the description of Kiva as "troubled"
4) In everything I've written about Kiva throughout I've tried to bring the point back to the culpability of donors who demand something unreasonable and quite possibly harmful from nonprofits and then get angry when nonprofits try to appease them while still doing the right thing. That generally doesn't apply to Kiva Friends who are of course among the most informed of Kiva lenders and will have found none of the "revelations" to be a surprise. But it does describe a lot of people who are overeacting to the NYT story.

Finally the point I was trying to make about kivafriends providing a platform for unhappy lenders was not meant to imply that all users of kivafriends are unhappy but that the existence of kivafriends makes it easier for those who are unhappy to communicate their displeasure to others. That is a danger for any organization that decides to take an approach like Kiva's--the platform works just as well for unhappy customers as it does for happy customers.

[AccountAbility]

Apology accepted.

Dan

[Jan & John]

I find that Kiva Friends, while allowing me to see more of what goes on behind the scenes...

actually is a support group where I can vent and be soothed by friends who see the other side of the coin.

The Kiva Lender Messages and the Kiva Lender Teams however are not quite the same.

I am just now seeing the teams catch on to what has been discussed here for quite a while...

and some of those people are flailing around not knowing who to talk to or where to go for advice.

My own team is small but some of the larger teams can pass a message of doom faster than Twitter

I agree with Tim's use of 'people overreact.'    Knee jerk reactions instead of sitting down with the facts until daylight creeps in to explain the reality of the way things need to be.

People overreact, and that's a fact of life we, and Kiva, need to deal with daily.

-jan-

[RichardF]

I find it interesting that I don't even have any Team Messages for Me at all right now.  I must be in lots of mellow groups. Or...
Should I check the Kiva Technical Issues topic?   Is something busted again? 

[Jan & John]

oops - nope - no news for me today either...

it's the small stuff like this that makes me annoyed...

If I went to my online bank and saw little glitches all the time I would wonder how well they could look after my money...

what does a new lender think when they see these things...

Kiva has to fill up the holes in this ship...

-jan-