Administrative changes to KivaFriends.org

[Guest]

.

[Diane R]

Joe, the founder of KivaFriends, has added me as another Administrator at KivaFriends, along with himself. When he is not available, I can help with things like adding new sections to the website and modifying many of the settings here (such as the length of the "idle timer" in the chatroom).

Very recently, we made a forum change that we are announcing here. There have been several instances of thread continuity in the forum being lost after members decided to delete large numbers of their old posts, or of conversations to which many had contributed thoughtful responses being rendered completely unintelligible or turned into one-sided non-discussions when all posts from one member were removed. Additionally, we discovered that if a member deleted one of their posts which had started a thread, the entire thread was deleted, regardless of its length, number of thoughtful contributions, historical importance, or interest to others. To avoid these sorts of forum damage in the future, Joe and I agreed after reviewing the available administrative tools to limit the ability to edit or delete your posts to the first 24 hours after posting. Many Internet discussion groups have far more stringent limits, some forbidding edits or deletions after as little as 20 minutes; we felt that 24 hours offered members sufficient opportunity to make any necessary changes.

The preferred response, if you have second thoughts about your posts, would be to post a second time in a thread if your opinion changes or other facts come to light, rather than return to an earlier post and delete or change its content. Either of these latter actions renders the discussions meaningless, and is disrespectful to the others who have offered their thoughts as contributions to the discussion. If there are posts which a member feels a strong need to change or delete, the Moderators have the ability to remove or edit posts. You can contact the moderating team most easily by clicking the "Report to moderator" link in the lower right of such a post and ask for the moderators' help in such an emergency.

This change will ensure that all members' contributions to the forum are treated with the respect they deserve.  The Internet adage "Think twice, post once" is sound advice regardless of the forum involved.


--Diane.

[RichardF]

While I understand the thinking behind this decision, I find it an unfortunate turn of events for one of the previously most open discussion forums on the Internet.  This clearly is a degradation of the express opportunities for KF participants.  If this discussion software had more technical capabilities a little more along the lines of the Wikipedia-style software, then the moderators and administrators would have more postings restoration tools at their disposal.  There are many legitimate reasons for editing and even deleting posts, such as a means of updating the status of various funding drives in progress - most notably by the Late Loaning Lenders - or keeping first postings current - like on Ian's spreadsheets or even the Women in Hats! membership.  Yes, there are inelegant alternatives, but something is lost here today, and it's more than a posting or two.  I guess it's simply time to adjust, let it be and move forward.

[Diane R]

While I understand the thinking behind this decision, I find it an unfortunate turn of events for one of the previously most open discussion forums on the Internet.  This clearly is a degradation of the express opportunities for KF participants.

Not at all: the discussion opportunities remain as they always have been.  What has been removed is the ability of a member to damage or delete entire threads, rendering them incomprehensible.   

If this discussion software had more technical capabilities a little more along the lines of the Wikipedia-style software, then the moderators and administrators would have more postings restoration tools at their disposal.

KivaFriends is a series of linear discussions, not a wiki, and it should not be necessary for volunteer moderators to watch for eviscerations of often-read threads and try to undo any such damage to the forum and disrespect to the efforts, thoughts, and posts of other members as a result of someone's deletions or modifications after the fact.

something is lost here today, and it's more than a posting or two.

What's been recovered is the ability of a member to be assured that their posts will continue to make sense in context in the future.

ok...  So I have this message that is mentioned in my signature that I update regularly.  What is your suggestion about cases like that?

I'd suggest possibly pointing your signature at a thread rather than a specific post, and adding the updated list as a most recent post in that referred-to thread.

I understand the identification of the problem, but I don't like this solution.

It would be wonderful if the software were more flexible or had more fine-grained options, but it does not.  It would not be practical to change the forum software at this point.  We took the action we felt was best for the forum.   

Problem not solved.

The actual problem as identified is solved: prohibiting the removal of entire threads, regardless how long or involved or well-reasoned or thoughtful, by deleting the first post in that thread, and disallowing making the remaining content of a thread meaningless when large numbers of posts are deleted by a member who had been part of that discussion.  These forms of damage to the forum can no longer occur.  And there is always the option of asking the Moderators to delete or edit in an emergency.

--Diane.

[cpbailey]

If someone has a real issue with decisions of management, appeal to the CEO and get the management fired!!!!

What?  They aren't paid?!?  Gee, well, uhm, then I guess...what I mean to say is THANK YOU--moderators and administrators (and people who donate money to keep this site running).  While I may not agree with every decision, I sure ain't gonna sweat the small stuff!

Colette

[fnord]

First, thanks to the moderators and admins for volunteering their time. In the absolute, I'd tend to say it's not a perfect decision, but it makes sense with the limitations of the board software. BTW, thanks a lot for taking the time to explain your reasoning, from experience it's not something I take for granted.

David, I can understand your frustration -- I read your post before you deleted it -- but in my opinion the signature isn't such a good option in the first place. I'm a newbie but I quickly came to appreciate the tremendous work you've been doing. But to tell the truth I usually don't read the signatures. I did in your case because your posts drew attention to it. I know that kiva does feature it in their app gallery, but feel the "risk-based" label is misleading: it's a great tool to tailor your loaning to whatever your priorities are, and it nicely fills in for a limitation of the poor search capabilities of the kiva site. And you've been amazingly responsive to bug reports and suggestions.

So I really think your works deserves something better than a signature: is there a reason why kivabank.org isn't featured on the board's masthead in some way? If it is already and I missed it, please make it more prominent.

fred

[Robert]

I like this change, not only for the reasons that we have been told, but also because I am not aware of changes that are made to old posts. Usually I do not read old threads from beginning to end, but I look into "Recent Posts" or "List of recent threads with unread posts" and then I miss the added text in old posts.

Regarding the currency risk feature, I think that it is so important and so much used, that it deserves its own thread, preferably sticky. Why not create it right now and add Nor Horizon Universal Credit Organization Limited Liability Company in Armenia to the list?

Robert

[RichardF]

Hey!  What happened to David's post?!!!   

[Henry]

I'm afraid to move - fear of getting shot

[wthepoo]

Hey!  What happened to David's post?!!!   

Just to make it abundantly clear (and I know you are not assuming otherwise, Richard):

David has obviously decided to remove his post which is still possible within the time constraints of the new timer as is modification of one's posts.

It is a little unfortunate to do either in a way that makes later posts incomprehensible - as it has partly happened here with fnord's post (though David had obviously deleted his post prior to fnord posting so it's anything but his "fault") - which is precisely one of the two main reasons why the moderators as a group have decided to introduce this timer (the other, and even more crucial, being the ability to delete other members' posts by deleting the first post in a thread - something we felt we could not reliably monitor for old threads). I would still (and I feel safe in saying that I'm speaking on behalf of my 5 colleagues here) urge you to be considerate with modifications/deletions during the timer period.

I agree that this change can sometimes prove a little "inconvenient" for the reasons stated by Richard and David and call for "inelegant" alternatives; and we have thoroughly discussed and weighed these inconveniences (btw: also for us as we will from now on likely have to deal with the - hopefully: only - occasional request to edit or delete an old post). In the end, the argument made here by Robert "won" - also in the light of a clear case of (freely admitted: intentional) abuse of the mentioned features at the cost of several members.

I guess it's simply time to adjust, let it be and move forward.

Yes, please! I also think that it will indeed mostly be a question of adjusting.

Best wishes,
Wolfgang.

[DoubleR]

I would like to echo Colette's post and say THANK YOU to the moderators for your time and effort.  I'm sure this wasn't an easy decision to make.

Will this change will be noted in the HELP section (under Posting) and in the Terms of Use in the REGISTER section?  Newbies (and infrequent KF users) should have a place to refer to where the one hour limit is formally documented.

In the LinkedIn discussion boards, a logged-in user can see a timer under any new post that (s)he created.  For example, it will say "You have xx minutes to modify this post."  I realize that there may not be the time/resources to add a such a feature, but I would offer it as a suggestion in case anyone feels inclined to introduce such an enhancement.

Regards,
Ronan