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Author Topic: Expired listings data  (Read 4283 times)
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PierreML
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« on: June 06, 2011, 02:28:50 PM »

Dear all:

I came across this older thread http://www.kivafriends.org/index.php/topic,4360.0.html
about expired listings. At the time, it looked like there had only been 2 expired listings up to August 2009, and then starting in Sept 2009, there were many more, though at that point only 31.

First question: does anyone know if this list was complete? Or did more loans expire before then and the list provided at the old thread is just a selection? The weird thing about the listing above, is that the webpage of the expired borrowers clearly still exists, and it says "expired", but they seem to be unsearchable on Kiva and not even using Google advanced search.

Second question: does anyone know how to find a listing of all expired loans, perhaps using the API to pull data? I am especially curious to see if cases of loan expiration have become more common over time. I know there are lenders who focus on "soon to expire" loans to give them a boost, so I am guessing this issue has been noticed and has gained importance? One Kiva fellow had a very good post about this a while ago.

Any ideas would be very much appreciated! I am new to this forum and looking forward to joining your discussions.
Pierre
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Jan & John
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« Reply To This #1 on: June 06, 2011, 05:38:39 PM »

just poppin in to say  Hat Wave howdy to you Pierre, and welcome to KF...

I think someone might be able to answer your questions, but I can't...

I was prompted by your questions to look into my own portfolio... I have 21 loans showing 'refunded' - they all show as Anonymous now, and I also can think of no easy way to see how many were defaults and how many were just expired loans. 

always glad to see new faces around here all the time... Smiley
-jan-
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Peter S
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« Reply To This #2 on: June 06, 2011, 06:35:12 PM »

. . . The weird thing about the listing above, is that the webpage of the expired borrowers clearly still exists, and it says "expired", but they seem to be unsearchable on Kiva and not even using Google advanced search.
. . .

Kiva announced recently that loans would no longer be available through search engines, and it seems this has now been implemented.  Each loan now has a statement in the "meta" block near the start of the source code, telling search engines to get lost.  (<meta name="robots" content="NOINDEX, NOFOLLOW" />).  This also seems to apply to loans from several years ago, such as this one.

As you say, expired loans are not searchable on Kiva either, because Kiva has chosen to make them unsearchable.  Editing the browser address bar (containing the URL for a permitted search result) to search for all expired loans now doesn't work.

Don't really know the answer to your main questions, unfortunately.  Someone from the Late Loaning Lenders Team might have the answer for you, and/or someone with a good understanding of the API.  If you haven't already, consider joining the LLL team, and read the messages there.  It's at http://www.kiva.org/team/late_loaning_lenders

Peter


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nuc
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« Reply To This #3 on: June 06, 2011, 06:58:06 PM »

@Pierre: a while ago I actually wrote to kiva asking them what the percentage of expired loans would be (in numbers and/or in $), but the answer was a bit general, just telling me about the number which you can find in https://www.kiva.org/portfolio/loans -> "Total Amount Refunded and Expired", which obviously doesn't tell much.

@Peter: Thanks for this information. I was also wondering just now that there are no results in a Google site:kiva.org search. As for the API, I'm no expert, but it doesn't look like you can search for expired loans, not even for the refunded ones, see http://build.kiva.org/docs/data . But I'd be happy to be proven wrong.

For the fun of it, I tried wolfram alpha (unsuccessfully, as suspected), but it's interesting that you can find ~25 of the expired loans on bing.com with a site search.
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JohnAtKiva
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« Reply To This #4 on: June 06, 2011, 07:28:09 PM »

Hello Pierre!  This loan expired on May 14, 2011:
http://www.kiva.org/lend/290423

I believe the previous expiration before that was in March or so of 2010?  I joined Kiva shortly after that date in 2010, and the recent May expiration is the only one that I'm aware of on my watch...

John
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Peter S
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« Reply To This #5 on: June 06, 2011, 07:35:38 PM »

I played about with site search, and the following Google query does produce 13 results, with the final expired loan listed being from May 2010.

site:api.kivaws.org/v1/loans/ expired


Looking at it from lender data, there are currently 1360 results for..

site:www.kiva.org/lender expired

..because expired loans are listed with that label on public lender pages.  Lender pages don't have the robots meta exclusion, so are searchable as normal.  Obviously this isn't a measurement for how many loans have actually expired, because the same expired loan will appear on multiple lender pages.  If, at a wild guess, each expired loan has an average of 30 disappointed lenders at $25 each, that would suggest around 45 expired loans in all.

nuc - I suspect that bing.com will fall into line when its robots & crawlers catch up with the Kiva site?


Peter
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PierreML
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« Reply To This #6 on: June 06, 2011, 09:08:19 PM »

Thanks for those preliminary answers! And the part about Bing is pretty interesting... All this confirms what I thought: it actually IS difficult to find out! Yet knowing which loans have expired in the past seems like valuable information for many lenders.

I don't get why Kiva is being so secret about these expired loans. I suspect that some lenders (like that team you mentioned) would start looking for what kind of loans tend to expire and actively try to promote the next similar postings. Loan expiration does not have to reflect poorly on Kiva or the field partner, after all. It's part of Kiva life and lender teams get set up to fix all sorts of imbalances all the time.

Hopefully further contributors in this thread will be able to figure something out! In the api, it seems that "expired" is under "status", so there has to be some way to get a listing, it's just another string of characters like "fundraising" after all... Unless Kiva indeed makes this impossible... which would puzzle me...

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JohnAtKiva
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« Reply To This #7 on: June 06, 2011, 09:21:15 PM »

I don't get why Kiva is being so secret about these expired loans.

Hello Pierre!  I don't think it's a matter of being secretive. :-)  As I understand it, there haven't been that many expired loans in the history of Kiva.  That's probably why there isn't an automated way to find them...

I'd be glad to help us all compile a list of all of the expired loans to date, if you'd like!  Let me know...

Best,
John
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PierreML
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« Reply To This #8 on: June 06, 2011, 10:29:19 PM »

Hi John,

Thanks for your reply! I would love to have a list of all expired loans to date if you find a way!

I was indeed starting to think you guys were being secretive, just because so many other details are easily searchable. So I'm glad to hear it's simply that it hasn't happened much overall, which makes sense.

But I wonder if the loans that expired have things in common, whether these are specific characteristics, or the time they were posted, i.e bad luck... Anyway, if you can help compile a list, that would be amazing. I'm sure at least some other lenders will be interested!

Thanks and looking forward to talking with you further.

Best,
Pierre
« Last Edit: June 06, 2011, 10:40:21 PM by PierreML » Logged
alan
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« Reply To This #9 on: June 07, 2011, 12:02:49 PM »

Hi Pierre,

As a co-captain of the LLL team, I can give some anecdotal impressions, but sadly no hard data.

In general the type of loans that have tended to get down to the wire have been loans with one or more of the following attributes:

  • male client
  • large loan amount (e.g. $2000+)
  • long repayment term (e.g. 18 months+)
  • anonymous client
  • currency risk
  • perceived country risk (e.g., Nicaragua)

So large loans to groups in the past were having diffculty getting funded, for example. Agriculture loans also seem to be less popular, so a large loan to a man with a cow and a long repayment term might find difficulty attracting lenders.

But as you suggest, a significant aspect of the problem is just luck. For no apparent reason we find that two similar loans can have very different histories in that one may be funded within hours of being posted whilst the other sits around for a few weeks. In fact, several months ago there was a problem with many duplicate loan listings and that provided us with an interesting experiment in which two identical loans might be funded at very different rates.

If you sort the loan list by Expiring Soon, you quickly get a sense of the sorts of loans that take more time to get funded.

The loan that expired in May was the first in a year and something like 30 or 40 had expired previously. There have been a few times when large loans were getting close, and that stimulated the founding of the LLL team in July 2009. I think we suffered our first expiry in September 2009. (Prior to LLL, something like 3 or 4 loans expired a few years earlier, but these were apparently anomalies.)

Many more would have expired without the efforts of the LLL team. (He said, modestly  Embarrassed)

Once upon a time it was possible to search loans by status including "Expired". I don't know why that option was dropped.

On the positive side, I think the groups of "featured loans" are helping the cause. Group loans, housing loans and agriculture loans tend to be less popular and drawing attention to them is a good thing. Another thing that has helped is that we haven't had quite the same flood of new loans all at once on the 1st of the month for some time as we used to. When you get, say, 1400+ new loans all at once, you are bound to have a couple of hundred still waiting to be funded toward the end of the month, and that makes for a very busy LLL team.
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