9/9/2011 edits to the Terms of Use

[Guest]

.

[Harvey:)]

1. If I post borrower names/pictures to a web forum or Facebook and the loan goes delinquent/defauls, do I have to remove them or be in violation of the terms?

We're going to amend the legal terms to make it clear that only people who have reasonable control over their content are obligated to make old listings anonymous.

So for example, if a site dedicated to enabling Kiva loans uses the Kiva API to enable lending and saves old listings in their database... if you run that site, we do ask that you anonymize those loans if the borrower becomes delinquent or defaults.

But if you're just a lender and you've posted to a site or internet forum that doesn't let you delete or privatize your old postings, then you don't have control over your old content and that's ok with regards to our terms.

These statements raise some issues.

In regards to Kiva Friends, it is true that up until April 2010 we owned (or so we thought) and controlled our own posts. In April 2010 the right to our posts and access to our posts was taken from us by the KF administrators (and moderators).  ( I specifically recall reading Kerry’s post in which she stated that after 24 hours the posts belonged to the forum.)

At the time our posts were taken from us we were assured by Diane and Mona that we would be assisted in deleting and/or editing the posts which we posted but which we no longer controlled. That no longer seems to be the case.

John, you say that if we physically cannot delete the posts which contravene the section of Kiva’s ToU which concerns the privacy of anonymous borrowers, then it is fine with Kiva if we do not delete them.  You say that only people who have control over their posts need to delete them. I would question why does Kiva have a statement which concerns the privacy of anonymous borrowers in the Kiva ToU if it applies only in certain circumstances and not in others?  How can a wishy washy statement concerning anonymous borrowers' privacy that applies in some cases but not in others be enforced? What privacy protection does it afford the anonymized borrowers if their profile information is removed from some sites but not from other sites? Why remove it from any site if it is going to be displayed on other sites. To insist that the borrower profile information be removed from some sites but not others is illogical and it certainly does not protect the borrowers’ privacy.

Another point I would like to make is this: It is true we (KF members) can no longer physically remove the posts which we originally posted. However, KF is not some distant forum on which it is difficult to reach the administrators and interact with them. We CAN reach the administrators and voice our concerns and our requests concerning the offending posts which display anonymized borrower information.  I have identified several posts which I had previously posted and which display (now anonymized) borrower profile information. I have publicly and privately requested the Kiva Friends administrators to remove those posts in order to protect the borrowers’ privacy. No one had to troll the forum or read every post on the forum to find these offending posts which display anonymized borrower profiles.  The offending posts (which I previously posted) were served up on a platter to the administrators. All they had to do was remove them. To date, that has not been done.
 
I have exercised my part of the “reasonable control over content” by identifying the offending posts (links included) and requesting them to be removed. I anticipated that the administrators would exercise their part of the “reasonable control over content” by removing the identified posts (over which they now have control). We know full well that the offending posts CAN be removed by the administrators. I see no reason why the posts have not yet been removed. However, for some reason, there seems to be resistance from the KF administrators to doing so.  

In my opinion, the privacy of the borrowers should be everyone’s top concern and we should be doing everything we can to keep the anonymized borrowers’ information private.  However, the borrower privacy issue seems to have been shuffled to the back. I do question what is really going on. Is the borrowers’ privacy the real issue or is it something else.
  
Again, I request the KF administrators, please remove the following  identified offending posts:

http://www.kivafriends.org/index.php/topic,3234.msg86020.html#msg86020
http://www.kivafriends.org/index.php/topic,5313.msg85916.html#msg85916
http://www.kivafriends.org/index.php/topic,5313.msg85907.html#msg85907
http://www.kivafriends.org/index.php/topic,5313.msg85766.html#msg85766
http://www.kivafriends.org/index.php/topic,5313.msg85049.html#msg85049
http://www.kivafriends.org/index.php/topic,3447.msg84944.html#msg84944
http://www.kivafriends.org/index.php/topic,5313.msg84884.html#msg84884
http://www.kivafriends.org/index.php/topic,3447.msg84775.html#msg84775
http://www.kivafriends.org/index.php/topic,3961.msg83729.html#msg83729
http://www.kivafriends.org/index.php/topic,1733.msg83378.html#msg83378
http://www.kivafriends.org/index.php/topic,1733.msg83336.html#msg83336
http://www.kivafriends.org/index.php/topic,5313.msg80729.html#msg80729


*Edited to clarify that this post refers to the section of Kiva’s ToU which concerns the privacy of anonymous borrowers. That is the subject that is being discussed in this thread. To be perfectly clear, this posts refers to the following quote from Kiva's ToU:

"In addition, to the extent you receive information from Kiva, its Field Partners or the Borrower with respect to any Borrower, and that information is later removed from the Website (including, without limitation, due to the Loan delinquency or default of a particular Borrower or the sensitive nature of particular Borrower profiles), you may not further disclose or otherwise provide such information to another party in a way that allows a personal identification of such Borrower, if such Borrower (either directly or through the corresponding Field Partner or Kiva) has opted to have his or her identity withheld on the Website."

[David2051]

I have exercised my part of the “reasonable control over content” by identifying the offending posts (links included) and requesting them to be removed. I anticipated that the administrators would exercise their part of the “reasonable control over content” by removing the identified posts (over which they now have control). We know full well that the offending posts CAN be removed by the administrators. I see no reason why the posts have not yet been removed. However, for some reason, there seems to be resistance from the KF administrators to doing so. 

In my opinion, the privacy of the borrowers should be everyone’s top concern and we should be doing everything we can to keep the anonymized borrowers’ information private.  However, the borrower privacy issue seems to have been shuffled to the back. I do question what is really going on. Is the borrowers’ privacy the real issue or is it something else.

Just hazarding a guess here, but removing these posts sort of violates the "sanctity of posts" idea which was used as the excuse for the moderators removing the ability of us to edit or delete our own posts in the first place.   If these posts are going to be removed, why not just restore the ability for us to maintain our own posts?  Presumably removing these posts would cause irreparable harm to this forum, or at least that was the story going around in the past...

As to the privacy rights of borrowers, Kiva should stop posting repayment details of loans in a public forum and then it could stop anonymizing loans at all.  (Unless their are personal safety issues in unusual circumstances...)  That would be respectful of borrowers privacy rights and would not, in my opinion, reduce any "transparency" of Kiva.  Transparency is reflected in accurate partner statistics and Kiva seems to be doing a good job with that.

[Harvey:)]

Just hazarding a guess here, but removing these posts sort of violates the "sanctity of posts" idea which was used as the excuse for the moderators removing the ability of us to edit or delete our own posts in the first place.   If these posts are going to be removed, why not just restore the ability for us to maintain our own posts?  Presumably removing these posts would cause irreparable harm to this forum, or at least that was the story going around in the past...

As to the privacy rights of borrowers, Kiva should stop posting repayment details of loans in a public forum and then it could stop anonymizing loans at all.  (Unless their are personal safety issues in unusual circumstances...)  That would be respectful of borrowers privacy rights and would not, in my opinion, reduce any "transparency" of Kiva.  Transparency is reflected in accurate partner statistics and Kiva seems to be doing a good job with that.

I will address a couple of your points, David.

"but removing these posts sort of violates the "sanctity of posts" idea which was used as the excuse for the moderators removing the ability of us to edit or delete our own posts in the first place."

In my opinion, posts are not sacred and just because some people seem to think they are sacred does not mean they are. I agree, though, that the idea of the sanctity of posts was the excuse that was used to take our posts and control of our posts away from us.

If these posts are going to be removed, why not just restore the ability for us to maintain our own posts?

Good question. In my opinion, our posts should never have been taken away from us in the first place and they should definitely be restored to us. That would allow us to correct the current problem of the private information of "supposedly" anonymous borrowers being displayed on the KF forum (borrowers who are anonymous on some sites but viewable on other sites, including this forum). 

Presumably removing these posts would cause irreparable harm to this forum, or at least that was the story going around in the past...

Yes, that was the story, LOL. I don't believe everything I read. In my opinion, removing posts that infringe on the privacy of anonymous borrowers is in no way going to irreparably harm this or any other forum. This forum is not the most important issue here. Borrower privacy is.  Anyway, as one moderator, Peter,  said,  "98.86% of the posts here anyway are never looked at after a few days, and will remain in well-merited obscurity." I concur, but I would probably put the percentage at 99.9%.

As to the privacy rights of borrowers, Kiva should stop posting repayment details of loans in a public forum and then it could stop anonymizing loans at all.  (Unless their are personal safety issues in unusual circumstances...)  That would be respectful of borrowers privacy rights

I agree.

However, the problem still exists. There are posts on this forum that infringe on the privacy of the anonymous borrowers. I have pointed out several posts which I previously posted that fall into this category and I have requested the administrator to remove them. My request stands.

[JohnAtKiva]

John, you say that if we physically cannot delete the posts which contravene Kiva’s privacy policy, then it is fine with Kiva if we do not delete them.  You say that only people who have control over their posts need to delete them. I would question why does Kiva have a privacy policy at all if it applies only in certain circumstances and not in others?  How can a wishy washy privacy policy that applies in some cases but not in others be enforced?

I should probably start off by clarifying that the edits under discussion will be made to Kiva's Terms of Use, not its Privacy Policy (that's a separate legal document).

What privacy protection does it afford the anonymized borrowers if their profile information is removed from some sites but not from other sites? Why remove it from any site if it is going to be displayed on other sites. To insist that the borrower profile information be removed from some sites but not others is illogical and it certainly does not protect the borrowers’ privacy.

Your question reminded me of the famous story of the little boy and the starfish:

There once was a young boy who went to the beach for vacation with his family. He was sad to see that every day as the tide went out, hundreds of starfish were left to dry up and die on the beach. Each day he would run along the beach, looking for starfish and throw them back into the water. His parents, frustrated that he was not building sandcastles and splashing in the water as they expected, tried to discourage this behavior.

As they walked along the beach with him, searching for starfish, his mother said, “Why are you doing this? When we go home, there will be no one to do it. What difference does it make?"

His father added, “You are wasting your time. Think of all the starfish that get washed up on beaches all over the world every day. You can’t possibly make a difference.”

The little boy stubbornly picked up one more starfish, threw it back out to sea, turned to his parents and said, “I made a difference for that one!”

http://archstl.org/stewardship/page/making-difference-saving-starfish

So with regards to your question, "What privacy protection does it afford the anonymized borrowers if their profile information is removed from some sites but not from other sites?"  I think it's like with a beached starfish: it can make a difference for a particular borrower!

Also though, I want to clarify that internet forums are not the main target of these edits to the terms.  Not sure if you saw this earlier, from earlier in the thread:

We're going to amend the legal terms to make it clear that only people who have reasonable control over their content are obligated to make old listings anonymous.

So for example, if a site dedicated to enabling Kiva loans uses the Kiva API to enable lending and saves old listings in their database... if you run that site, we do ask that you anonymize those loans if the borrower becomes delinquent or defaults.

But if you're just a lender and you've posted to a site or internet forum that doesn't let you delete or privatize your old postings, then you don't have control over your old content and that's ok with regards to our terms.

That hopefully clarifies that these terms edits are aimed primarily at sites dedicated to enabling Kiva loans using the Kiva API.  As mentioned, if you run a site like that, we ask that you anonymize any loan listings data that you've saved if the loans become delinquency or default.  That feels a worthwhile effort to me, although I understand that others may feel differently.

John

[Harvey:)]

I should probably start off by clarifying that the edits under discussion will be made to Kiva's Terms of Use, not its Privacy Policy (that's a separate legal document).

Yes, I think we all know that. Perhaps my choice of words was a bit confusing. Perhaps I should have said “the section of Kiva’s ToU which concerns the privacy of anonymous borrowers” instead of  “privacy policy.” I have now clarified that in my previous post.

[YowieFreak]

... these terms edits are aimed primarily at sites dedicated to enabling Kiva loans using the Kiva API.  As mentioned, if you run a site like that, we ask that you anonymize any loan listings data that you've saved if the loans become delinquency or default.  ...

Will the users of the Kiva API be notified when the loans "become delinquency or default", or will it be another situation similar to what happens now when the loan repayment schedule of Borrowers changes and Lenders (in this case, through the Kiva site) are not notified - "we're not going to tell you - we expect you to just KNOW that it has changed"?

[AccountAbility]

Yes, I think we all know that. Perhaps my choice of words was a bit confusing. Perhaps I should have said “the section of Kiva’s ToU which concerns the privacy of anonymous borrowers” instead of  “privacy policy.” I have now clarified that in my previous post.

You see, it's really very simple.      if you are referring to the privacy of lenders, then Kiva's Privacy Policy applies.  But if you are referring to the privacy of borrowers, then Kiva's Terms of Use apply.

Dan

[JohnAtKiva]

Will the users of the Kiva API be notified when the loans "become delinquency or default", or will it be another situation similar to what happens now when the loan repayment schedule of Borrowers changes and Lenders (in this case, through the Kiva site) are not notified - "we're not going to tell you - we expect you to just KNOW that it has changed"?

Hmm, not sure what you mean re: loan repayment schedules of borrowers changing?  It's my understanding that loan repayment schedules can't be changed on Kiva's website... unless you mean that the MFI itself may have changed a borrower's schedule.  Let me know what you had in mind!

As for the users of the Kiva API, you raise a great point and I'll definitely check with the API team as to their plans!

John

[YowieFreak]

Hmm, not sure what you mean re: loan repayment schedules of borrowers changing?  It's my understanding that loan repayment schedules can't be changed on Kiva's website... unless you mean that the MFI itself may have changed a borrower's schedule.  Let me know what you had in mind!

Customer Service told me that whenever Kiva modified the Repayment Schedules (which is a fairly frequent occurrence) the Field Partners are required to post an update to let the Lenders know that they should expect to receive their repayments at a different time to what was on the website when they made their loan.

(I'm not sure why it is the Field Partners' responsibility to post updates when Kiva modifies the Schedules, but that's just one more of the many illogical things that I don't understand.)

About six weeks ago I gave Ali a list of a couple of dozen that had changed recently so that she could ensure the appropriate updates were posted - but, so far, nada.

I've never seen an update in the past, so I'm not really hopeful of seeing any now - despite the assurances I received that they would be posted.

[JohnAtKiva]

Customer Service told me that whenever Kiva modified the Repayment Schedules (which is a fairly frequent occurrence) the Field Partners are required to post an update to let the Lenders know that they should expect to receive their repayments at a different time to what was on the website when they made their loan.

I'm a bit confused still - sorry about that!

What do you mean about Kiva modifying the repayment schedules of loans... do you mean the repayment schedules published on the Kiva website?