I'll Show You Mine If You'll Show Me Yours; Differences in Our Cultural Mores

[Guest]

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[Jill]

     Probably no generalization would be true of everybody in a particular culture.  There are always, always going to be exceptions.

      Still, in each of our cultures, there are always going to be some mores, some values, some characteristics that probably most of the people in that culture would recognize as representative, at least, as being true of a significant portion of the population.

     
         With the truly beautiful and expanding diversity of Lenders that Kiva has been attracting

       in terms of Diversity of Culture, of Geographical Location,
        and of Life Experience[/color] ***,

     
     
         
                   I was thinking what an INCREDIBLE OPPORTUNITY we have

                                        for Learning About Other Cultures and
 
                                        for Teaching Others About and

                                                       for Reflecting, Ourselves, on our Own Culture.


(*** Many of us have either spent a lot of time in other countries or we've spent a lot of time with people from other countries, so we potentially have information of value about the mores, values and characteristics of other countries, in addition to those of their own).

 

      I'm hoping that people from All Over will contribute here, and that we can use this thread to educate ourselves, and anybody else who happens to stop by for a look.  There's no need, here, to get into any questions about whether somebody is right or whether somebody else is wrong.  This is just about how we all see "life" differently, sometimes, and how it would be a good thing to find out more about that

                  and, when it's possible, to move ourselves along that continuum

                     from Tolerance to Understanding to Acceptance to Celebration,
                       whenever we conceivably can. 

   


Here's an example of one possible approach:

     I'm Jill, and I'm a United States -American.

     In my country, people love and dote on their pets, and often glorify their animals almost to a point of deification.  An implication of this is that anything that looks like animal abuse quickly generates a huge public outcry.   It would be helpful to understand that when people send or post pictures of their animals, here, just as it is true when they send or post pictures of themselves or their family members, they're merely sharing with others something or someone that they love.
 
     Also, in my country, the United States, Freedom of Speech, Religion and Expression are values that have tremendous significance here.  (or.... Used to   ).
They're considered an integral part of my country's heritage and cultural values.  For a large segment of the population, the Right to Have and to Express Different Ideas and Beliefs are rights which define the best of what they consider to be "American", and they're rights which represent the essence of what it means to live in a democracy and are rights worth fighting for.







     

[Jill]

      Just to expand, a bit, on one of the ramifications of that
Value of Freedom of Expression, Speech, and Religion I mentioned in my earlier post
that many people in my country hold dear,

   If/When Somebody -- particularly our Government but when Anybody Else, too,
tries to prevent or inhibit
 (or, what's more, even when it appears that Someone is  trying to inhibit,
whether, in fact, they are trying to inhibit or not),

  our Freedom of Expression -- or, our Freedom of Action --

     it arouses, often upsets a significant portion of the population, here --
    rightly or wrongly.....

[Jill]

          Be Careful What You Name Your Teddy Bear...

     I know that Glenda already posted the first 2 of the following 3 links about the British teacher in Sudan a couple of days ago in Anything Goes, Reply #919.
http://www.kivafriends.org/index.php/topic,458.910.html

        If you haven't already read them, you might want to -- particularly before reading the third one.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/27/world/africa/27sudan.html?ref=africa
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7114439.stm

(Note, especially, the son's comments at the end of Page 2 of the following).
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/africa/article2976402.ece

       I'm really "back here" quite in spite of myself and almost totally because of this story and all its implications.  I think it's incredibly important, thought-provoking and....  well worth consideration and reflection by all of us.

      If, only if, you feel like it, I'd suggest that this evergrowing international community may be a perfect venue for reacting, responding, and reflecting on all the implications of this story.   I suggest that how we might choose to look at the issues may very well go far beyond the factual and geographical boundaries of what's been going on there.

       I'd propose that if any of you do feel like responding to this in the Forum, that you first write out your initial reflexive and maybe visceral reactions.  And then, after,  whether in the same post or sometime later, challenge yourself as if you were on a college debate team and had to come up with arguments or viewpoints for "the other side" and articulate those.

     You know how we all have always been taught that there are at least two sides to every story?    As hard as it may be for some/most of us to fathom it, that has to be true here, too.

     What if our lives and the lives of all we love depend on our being able to find some kind of understanding and reconciliation?

[Jill]

                  In thinking about this story a lot over the past few days,  I've been truly heartsick when thinking about the teacher and her family and friends.  But the aching I've felt has gone way way Way beyond this story and the feelings of a finite number of individuals.     I can't help but see implications in this as to whether there's even a slip of a chance we can ever have anything resembling world peace  -- when I think of how much we are at polar opposites of perception and reaction on the facts here.
         
            For me, this isn't just about a teacher in Sudan.  It's about Palestine and Israel.  It's about Iraq and Iran and Darfur and  China and Venezuela and Pakistan and Haiti and Cuba and Aids in Africa and all the struggles and conflicts I'm not mentioning but could and should be mentioning.

      It's about the 6 or 8% increase in hate crimes in the United States since last year.   It's about the absurd and for me, painful political manipulation of the American populace using the spurious issue of so-called "illegal aliens" (I hate that term) at a national debate of candidates for President of the United States.   

        It's about how incredibly incredibly almost impossibly difficult it's going to be to find common ground with all peoples if we're to have even slip of a chance of having peace in this world.  And it's about how absolutely imperative it is that we keep trying.

      Peace to all of you and to all of them and really, to all of Us.
     Jill

[Peter S]

oh dear, where to start...

Maybe with a press release put out two days ago by Dr Muhammad Abdul Bari, Secretary-General of the Muslim Council of Britain:

This is a disgraceful decision and defies common sense. There was clearly no intention on the part of the teacher to deliberately insult the Islamic faith. The children in Ms Gibbons' class and their parents have all testified as to her innocence in this matter. We call upon the Sudanese President, Umar al-Bashir, to intervene in this case without delay to ensure that Ms Gibbons is freed from this quite shameful ordeal.

There's no arguing with that.   Unfortunately, there's no arguing either with the convictions of religious fundamentalists of whatever persuasion once they have been whipped into a frenzy of hate by literal-minded purveyors of scripture, whether that's the Koran or the Bible. Those convictions, beliefs, whatever you want to call them, simply exist as a given which cannot be responded to by reasoned arguments.

Wider implications of the Gillian Gibbons case?  I'm not so sure that distressing and deeply stupid as this is, it tells us anything we didn't already know.  I think we knew already about the irrationality and the poisonous hatred that perversions of religion can unleash, if not before around 9:10 am on 9/11/01, then certainly from that moment on.

Well, that's my first reaction.  I don't think I'm going to have much of a second reaction in the sense implied by Jill saying You know how we all have always been taught that there are at least two sides to every story?    As hard as it may be for some/most of us to fathom it, that has to be true here, too.  The only second side I can see to this right now is simply to note (sociologically...) that religious fanaticism and hatred are long-standing facts of human societies, and political and other responses pose very acutely certain questions about national and individual freedoms.

I personally don't think this will be resolved in the lifetime of anyone now living - the timescales are historical, give it a good few hundred years for the human race to evolve just a fraction more.  It's painful maybe to accept that we will never see "world peace", but since it hasn't happened in the past 3000 years or so, there's no real reason to expect it to happen in our lifetimes.

In the meantime, the best hope is for people of goodwill, like Dr Muhammad Abdul Bari, like Jill, like me, like all of us, to keep talking to and understanding and educating each other.

P

[AccountAbility]

I normally don't participate in these discussion, in part because they get along just fine without me.  But one point I think needs to be made. Fanaticism is not religion, at least not in the way that religion usually refers to spiritual things, revering and being devoted to a higher being or power.  It is "religious" only in the sense that strong convictions which influence behaviors are often followed "religiously".  As an example, fanaticism can lead to soccer fans rioting and beating up opposing fans.  I'm sure you can supply your own examples.

Also, don't forget that this is the same Sudan that brings us the genocide of Darfur.  From this perspective, why should this incident cause us greater alarm than what has been going on for a number of years?

Dan

[KivanSteven]

Funny how you can call a harmless bear, Muhammad, and people want your head, while a common day man named Muhammad can be a violent terrorist and that in no way defames the name...since I am trying to speak from a perspective I wish the fanatics to see, its obvious that they wouldnt understand the comparison because they believe a man with that name who kills for Islam is actually very much so doing justice to the name.

I must say, it is positive and re-assuring to see many Muslim communities taking a definitive stand against the whole situation...I think a lot of that is media manipulation because they can so easily just broadcast interviews and scenes of people who support the teacher's arrest and trial and most of the world would think Islam as a whole, Islam in general, supports this.  Hopefully, what the media is conveying is true of the greater Islamic community because it at least demonstrates that we are trying to bridge the gap with people that are sensible and do understand the concept of unintentional...Im not saying they never did, Im just stating that for once we can see that they do, because they seem to be standing up and speaking for what they believe is right, even if it is in conflict with another Muslim individual, or another Islamic country, rather than blindly supporting their "own" which people the world over are guilty of.

[KivanSteven]

And welcome back Jill, hope youll stay for awhile. 

[Kay]

Funny how you can call a harmless bear, Muhammad, and people want your head, while a common day man named Muhammad can be a violent terrorist and that in no way defames the name...

Excellent point.

I must say, it is positive and re-assuring to see many Muslim communities taking a definitive stand against the whole situation...

I haven't been following this too closely, but I certainly hope this is the case.

[Kay]

                  I can't help but see implications in this as to whether there's even a slip of a chance we can ever have anything resembling world peace  -- when I think of how much we are at polar opposites of perception and reaction on the facts here.

Yes, it's mind-boggling.  I think Peter has summed up the situation well, though.